Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[stew.w]

alright, i bought one anyway as they're only $5 but my SSR is only 25A so maybe it'll get a bit warmer than yours would, garage gets pretty hot in summer too.

Tim F - checked about the PID and the one i bought is the model for SSR control (D1S-VR-220) from what ive read on homebrewtalk about it its just a knock off of the auber ones:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...p;products_id=3
and you can use the auber instructions as they've been written in english rather than being translated from chinese.

Cheers,

Stewart

 

[kymba]

tonight i finally got around to lagging my HX pot with the insulation i bought 4 months ago. i fired her up to see if everything is working ok befere letting it near grain

i set it to 90 degrees and it heated about 6 litres of water in about 10 minutes (at a guess), however when it got to 90 it turned off and the temp kept rising to 93. this is obviously from the lag between heating the thermowell and the metal tipped probe inside

i plan to get some thermal paste to squirt down into the well which should increase response time

so my questions are - do i run the autotune on the PID to get it to slow down when it is nearing the SV? is that how these PIDs are supposed to work? and do i need to autotune whenever i change the SV?

PID is a chinese REX-C100

 

[Phoney]

Now that I've got a bit more space, I'm seriously considering upgrading the 'ol 40L urn BIAB system into a 3V HERMS.

I'm sourcing 2 x 50L SS pots as we speak...

I currently have:

40L electric urn
mashmaster temp controller (heating) with SS probe
March pump
Minimal welding skills and absolutely no electrical skills, which after seeing everybody elses makes me a little nervous.

What are my chances of succeeding in this project?

 

[raven19]

Minimal welding skills and absolutely no electrical skills, which after seeing everybody elses makes me a little nervous.

What are my chances of succeeding in this project?

Chances are excellent. Some super build threads on this forum along with many other forums on the net.

I knew sfa about wiring, etc prior to my first rig build. Get a suitably qualified electrician to check over your wiring, and you will be fine.

Good luck with the transition.

I am sure there will some other handy brewers nearby able to help you for various components too.

 

[mr_tyreman]

Can i be a PITA for a sec, im just pulling my hair out over valve placement... either up at the vessels or down by the pump.

its just a single teir system with the pump just below.

i would like to put the valves down by the pumps, im worried about the liquids just resting in the lines between the kettle and the valve...or am i just being stupid here?

sorry for butting in h34r:

P.S i tried a search but with such a slow internet connection today...well you get the idea

 

[hsb]

You'd want a valve directly after the pump, so you can throttle flow through the pump/prime it.

You'd need also valves on the outlet from your vessels to stop the liquid flowing out?! :wacko:
Not much point putting the kettle out valve down by the pump - it serves the same purpose attached to the kettle and keeps everything inside until you're ready.

Are you hard plumbing things? Or using tubing/disconnects? Flexibility is great with the latter, you can always change it if you're not happy.

I'm sure others will have different setups, it really depends what you're trying to achieve. I have mine all on one level (the kettle) with the exception of the pump out but it's not mandatory to have it that way.

*edit - I should add that although you'd definitely (imo) want valves directly out of the vessels, many also have quite a few valves down on the pump level to redirect flow depending on what you are doing. More of a hard plumbing setup. Try uploading a diagram of your intended setup and someone can make suggestions on valve locations.

 

[mr_tyreman]

Great info mate, i opted for 'at the pump' option, i assembled everything but i realised i have some leakage issues around a few fittings and i need advice on an appropriate thread sealer, i searched and found a thread on using aquarium sealer and i emailed loctite and they reccomended loctite 577...but at $107 for a 250 ml tube im a little more inclined to seek an alternative option, a few threads mention just regular teflon tape, this seems logical as teflon is widely used as the seal in many ball valves, i have permatex thread seler and loctite 567 on hand.

what do you guys use as a thread sealer?

 

[hsb]

I find the pink "plumber's tape" you can find at most hardware stores does the trick.
It's thicker than the cheap white teflon stuff, a few turns of that and you should get a good seal. It might take one run of heating everything up for the seals to really lock tight.

Good luck, get it making beer and post some pics of your setup :icon_cheers:

 

[stew.w]

just use teflon, i wouldnt use a thread sealant as it might leach into your brew.

 

[mr_tyreman]

great, thanks boys... its almost ready for pictures

 

[srcossens]

How many people run an over the side immersion heater through a PID on 10A? The reason I ask is that the PID runs at 5W and the heater element runs at 2400W, therefore going slightly over 10A/2400W.

I'm trying to configure my Herms electronics box and am looking at having one PID and a 2400W element run off one plug and then another plug running another PID (5W), 2 pumps (107W each) and a 2200W element. The power going through each of these is then 2405W (10.02A) and 2419W (10.08A) respectively if everything runs at the same time. I'm going to get an electrician to check it out once I've got all the bits together, but was just wondering if the slight bit of extra amperage will get it knocked back?

I'm wanting to keep it with in normal domestic plugs as I'm currently renting.

 

[tuckerle71]

How many people run an over the side immersion heater through a PID on 10A? The reason I ask is that the PID runs at 5W and the heater element runs at 2400W, therefore going slightly over 10A/2400W.

I'm trying to configure my Herms electronics box and am looking at having one PID and a 2400W element run off one plug and then another plug running another PID (5W), 2 pumps (107W each) and a 2200W element. The power going through each of these is then 2405W (10.02A) and 2419W (10.08A) respectively if everything runs at the same time. I'm going to get an electrician to check it out once I've got all the bits together, but was just wondering if the slight bit of extra amperage will get it knocked back?

I'm wanting to keep it with in normal domestic plugs as I'm currently renting.

G'day Scott,
Slightly over 10 amps isn't so much of a problem. Theoretically, you could plug two ten amp heaters into the same double outlet. It isnt a good idea though, unless you are trying to trip the breaker or blow a fuse. Your circuit breaker is probably 16 amps which means that you would have to plug the two leads into two separate circuits. At best, if you have a 20 amp breaker, you would be running borderline and anything else on the circuit may be enough to trip the breaker at an inconvenient time.
Also, It is rare for a 2400 watt element to draw exactly 10 amps. If your place is close to a transformer on the street, your voltage may be higher than 240, alternately, if you are far from the transformer your voltage may be down around 220 volts which would give you around 9.2 amps ( a little over 2000 watts.) the only way to be sure is to build it and measure the current.
Another thing to consider is that most flex is light duty and may start to get warm if you try to draw 10 amps for long periods of time.
I hope this helps

 

[srcossens]

G'day Scott,
Slightly over 10 amps isn't so much of a problem. Theoretically, you could plug two ten amp heaters into the same double outlet. It isnt a good idea though, unless you are trying to trip the breaker or blow a fuse. Your circuit breaker is probably 16 amps which means that you would have to plug the two leads into two separate circuits. At best, if you have a 20 amp breaker, you would be running borderline and anything else on the circuit may be enough to trip the breaker at an inconvenient time.
Also, It is rare for a 2400 watt element to draw exactly 10 amps. If your place is close to a transformer on the street, your voltage may be higher than 240, alternately, if you are far from the transformer your voltage may be down around 220 volts which would give you around 9.2 amps ( a little over 2000 watts.) the only way to be sure is to build it and measure the current.
Another thing to consider is that most flex is light duty and may start to get warm if you try to draw 10 amps for long periods of time.
I hope this helps

Thank you Mr Tucker, it is a big help.

I know what you mean when you say that the flex gets warm after drawing 10A for a while, I used to use a 2400W element and noticed the difference with the extension cord on cold and warm days. I was looking at using wires rated to higher than 10A as down the track I will possibly upgrade to all electric. At the moment, it's part gas to keep within 10A and be able to brew 40-70 litres efficiently.

 

[NDH]

Hi all,


Currently in the build process of my herms setup (pictured below), utilising some 3-way valves to minimise hose movement, PID herms/HLT and gas kettle. Quick couple of questions as I am starting to wire up the control panel and finalise plumbing





I want to preheat the HX ready to start re circ after mash in, how do I ensure the HX is up to mash temp when my probe is theoretically on the outlet of the HX(dry) in the worth return fitting? I'm sure I'm overlooking the obvious but I'm stumped!

I am currently at the BIAB/No Chill stage but have bought a plate chiller for the new 3V, I understand crash chilling has a substantial effect on hop flavour but how effective is whirlpooling on removing hop debris? Is it worth the extra fittings/pumping? I was considering making a removable flase bottom/screen to contain the debris before the risk of entering the plate chiller.

a bit off topic but I don't use a hop sock with my BIAB creations and get a particularly earthy flavour from most late hop additions. I am yet to decide whether this is due to the No Chill or the fact I get a bit of hop matter into the cube/fermentor. It is also possible I don't wait long enough after flame out to cube, usually about 10 minutes after flame out with a bit of a mash paddle whirl. Without knowing the root cause of this I can't make a particularly educated decision on kettle design.

 

[alfadog]

Hi all,


Currently in the build process of my herms setup (pictured below), utilising some 3-way valves to minimise hose movement, PID herms/HLT and gas kettle. Quick couple of questions as I am starting to wire up the control panel and finalise plumbing


View attachment 50356


I want to preheat the HX ready to start re circ after mash in, how do I ensure the HX is up to mash temp when my probe is theoretically on the outlet of the HX(dry) in the worth return fitting? I'm sure I'm overlooking the obvious but I'm stumped!

I am currently at the BIAB/No Chill stage but have bought a plate chiller for the new 3V, I understand crash chilling has a substantial effect on hop flavour but how effective is whirlpooling on removing hop debris? Is it worth the extra fittings/pumping? I was considering making a removable flase bottom/screen to contain the debris before the risk of entering the plate chiller.

a bit off topic but I don't use a hop sock with my BIAB creations and get a particularly earthy flavour from most late hop additions. I am yet to decide whether this is due to the No Chill or the fact I get a bit of hop matter into the cube/fermentor. It is also possible I don't wait long enough after flame out to cube, usually about 10 minutes after flame out with a bit of a mash paddle whirl. Without knowing the root cause of this I can't make a particularly educated decision on kettle design.

I am not sure on your temperature probe setting but I use an inline filter (from a boating supply place) https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdeta...tAbsolutePage=1 it is food grade and clear so you can see if it is clogged.

 

[fcmcg]

Hi all,


Currently in the build process of my herms setup (pictured below), utilising some 3-way valves to minimise hose movement, PID herms/HLT and gas kettle. Quick couple of questions as I am starting to wire up the control panel and finalise plumbing


View attachment 50356


I want to preheat the HX ready to start re circ after mash in, how do I ensure the HX is up to mash temp when my probe is theoretically on the outlet of the HX(dry) in the worth return fitting? I'm sure I'm overlooking the obvious but I'm stumped!

I am currently at the BIAB/No Chill stage but have bought a plate chiller for the new 3V, I understand crash chilling has a substantial effect on hop flavour but how effective is whirlpooling on removing hop debris? Is it worth the extra fittings/pumping? I was considering making a removable flase bottom/screen to contain the debris before the risk of entering the plate chiller.

a bit off topic but I don't use a hop sock with my BIAB creations and get a particularly earthy flavour from most late hop additions. I am yet to decide whether this is due to the No Chill or the fact I get a bit of hop matter into the cube/fermentor. It is also possible I don't wait long enough after flame out to cube, usually about 10 minutes after flame out with a bit of a mash paddle whirl. Without knowing the root cause of this I can't make a particularly educated decision on kettle design.

I plug the desired HX number into my PID and then dangle the probe in my separate hx water , untill I'm ready to start re-circulating...then i connect up the probe and start the pump...seems to work for me...
Whirlpooling is good at removing alot of debris...just remember though ,with your plate chiller , you will get cold break into your fermentor...so there is still debris in there...i love mine however...just make sure that you back flush it for at least 10 mins to clear any crud/hop debris that tends to stick like shit to the proverbial...
Um...Kettle design ? I use to 50 litre kegs that have been welded together...and i do what you do...let it sit for 10 at flame out , after stirring the shite outta it...and then no chill...not really getting a particularly earthy flavour...
Anyway...this is what i do...
Cheers
F

 

[hsb]

I want to preheat the HX ready to start re circ after mash in, how do I ensure the HX is up to mash temp when my probe is theoretically on the outlet of the HX(dry) in the worth return fitting? I'm sure I'm overlooking the obvious but I'm stumped!

My HX is small, a custom vessel, rather than sat inside my HLT or a converted keg.
I can get away with preheating strike water in HLT to roughly right, then I transfer to Mash Tun, and begin recirculation using HX to get it up to Strike temperature. (no grain at this point, just liquor)
I can then stop recirculation (HX goes off), dough in, and restart recirculation and HX and my temperatures are smooth, the HX being preheated but able to drop enough not to overshoot strike targets.
This lets me preheat the Mash Tun, the HX, and everything in between, prior to dough in.

If your HX is larger (is it in the half keg under the bench?) you could just switch in on X number of minutes before dough in - X being the sweet spot that gets it warmed up but not too warm, that you'll need to figure out once you get to know your new setup (nice job btw.)

I have three options on my HX - 'On' - element is just on, no control. 'Off' - completely off and 'Auto' - uses PID (a BCS-460 in my case but same deal.)
So long as you have that 'Always On' option on your element, you can just switch it on early.

My HX



re: Whirlpooling. I have a screen on my kettle outlet. Some use a S/S scrubbie jammed on there instead. In combo with whirlpooling, I'm very happy with what ends up in the cube, no hops from the boil. Whirlpooling for 5 minutes makes a nice big cone of trub at the base of kettle.
My screen works better with Hop flowers/plugs, though it still works with pellets.

Kettle:

 

[mxd]

How many people run an over the side immersion heater through a PID on 10A? The reason I ask is that the PID runs at 5W and the heater element runs at 2400W, therefore going slightly over 10A/2400W.

I'm trying to configure my Herms electronics box and am looking at having one PID and a 2400W element run off one plug and then another plug running another PID (5W), 2 pumps (107W each) and a 2200W element. The power going through each of these is then 2405W (10.02A) and 2419W (10.08A) respectively if everything runs at the same time. I'm going to get an electrician to check it out once I've got all the bits together, but was just wondering if the slight bit of extra amperage will get it knocked back?

I'm wanting to keep it with in normal domestic plugs as I'm currently renting.

I wouldn't run my heater directly to the PID, go from PID to SSR that is rated to 20+ amps


going just over 10 amps will be fine, most of the wire in the house iw rated to 16 amp and your fuse box is possibly 15 amp.

 

[mxd]

Hi all,


Currently in the build process of my herms setup (pictured below), utilising some 3-way valves to minimise hose movement, PID herms/HLT and gas kettle. Quick couple of questions as I am starting to wire up the control panel and finalise plumbing


View attachment 50356


I want to preheat the HX ready to start re circ after mash in, how do I ensure the HX is up to mash temp when my probe is theoretically on the outlet of the HX(dry) in the worth return fitting? I'm sure I'm overlooking the obvious but I'm stumped!

I am currently at the BIAB/No Chill stage but have bought a plate chiller for the new 3V, I understand crash chilling has a substantial effect on hop flavour but how effective is whirlpooling on removing hop debris? Is it worth the extra fittings/pumping? I was considering making a removable flase bottom/screen to contain the debris before the risk of entering the plate chiller.

a bit off topic but I don't use a hop sock with my BIAB creations and get a particularly earthy flavour from most late hop additions. I am yet to decide whether this is due to the No Chill or the fact I get a bit of hop matter into the cube/fermentor. It is also possible I don't wait long enough after flame out to cube, usually about 10 minutes after flame out with a bit of a mash paddle whirl. Without knowing the root cause of this I can't make a particularly educated decision on kettle design.

what I do is fill HX, then put water in MLT, start recirc and HERMS with my temp set to Mash temp + 2-3 degrees, when it's at temp, I drop the PID back to mash temp and dough in. I don't turn the re-circ off. Whilst this is happening I'm heating my HLT to mash temp or mash out.

After dough in, I add more water in, from HLT to MLT through the outlet (i.e though the false bottom), this helps clear out the false bottom and keep a strong flow occurring.

 

[NDH]

Thanks for the replies guys,

The HX is going to be inside a little keg (under the bench in the photo), I'm going to sleeve in a 10lt pot and foam-o-fill around it to insulate really well. Also makes it look a bit better because all the vessels look like kegs!

I think I will chuck a whrilpool inlet halfway up the kettle and recirc from the kettle inlet with the pump, let it go for 5-10 then open the valve to the plate chiller. Was looking at the beerbelly hop screens, I've never had a trub cone look like that before hsb, obviously it doesn't obstruct the whirlpool too much.

Next thing is figuring out a neat wort return, I'm thinking of bending up a stainless ring, drilling some holes in it, and sitting it on the grainbed. Does it need to be suspended or is it fine just sitting on there, any suggestions on where to aim the holes?

Cheers

NDH