Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[razz]

Very nice TP, and a lot cheaper than the one i got from down south! Do you care to give us all a quick run down on how you fabricated it please?

 

[TidalPete]

Very nice TP, and a lot cheaper than the one i got from down south! Do you care to give us all a quick run down on how you fabricated it please?

razz,

Cut up an old ss saucepan keeping the pot handle threaded bit for the adjustable bracket to bolt on to. Bracket & adjustment bits are made from a length of 5\16" Whit ss threaded rod ($7). Bracket screws up & down the threaded rod & is locked in place by two ss wing nuts ($2). The pan has another short bit of threaded rod (With a ss flat washer silver soldered to it) bolted to it off-centre to keep the silicon tube in place. Bought a ss elbow (Around $7) to complete my list of purchases as I already had the lightweight silicon hose. Everything was silver soldered. Pic above was taken before I decided to use the elbow to take the hose around the side of the MT (To stop the hose from kinking) but should give you a better idea of the shape of the bracket. Sad to say I am unable to get the burn marks off the ss ATM & am open to suggestions. I think there is some kind of acid treatment that does the job but can't remember it??

TP

 

[Cannibal Smurf]

Quick question: the 1/2" copper pipe you are using for your HERMS coils, is it 1/2" ID or OD (12.7mm or 15.9mm)?

 

[razz]

1/2" OD.

 

[gava]

Cheers for this thread.. I thought I'd give it ago and make a HERMS upgrade to my brew rig.. here are some pictures of the end design.
I haven't tested it yet I'll do that today, my thinking is that the pot is pretty big and I dont have anything stiring the water.

I used a silicon baking mat from the reject shop to make my own seals for the connections.

 

[fcmcg]

So my HERMS build is entering its 9th month....
The control box is nearly finished ( then to get it wired)
Its made to look like a slab of beer...
I lined an empty slab box ( or carton to you non-victorians) with some 9mm mdf after i sealed the inside with waterproofing...
Its got a lockable door on the back of it , that you cant see in the photo....
The front is an aluminuim face plate to hold the bits and bobs...
The massive fark-off on/off switch in the front may or may not be used...i think it looks kinda cool though...
I plan on spraying the box with some clear 2 pac , so that it'll be water resistant...
Anyway...thought i'd show the world what i'm doing...
Cheers
Ferg

 

[gava]

gave my herms setup a go for the first time the other day...

I had issues of the MASH temp not being constant and overshooting.. (reading via mashmaster thermo within the MLT and from my probe)

My probe to control the HERMS pot is on the Wort return (sparge arm) Where do everyone else have theses? on MLT out? or Wort return?

I read a couple of articals about forgetting about the MLT probe and control the HERMS pot itself and have it as a constant temp (with stiring of the HERMS pot water) does anyone do this?
if so how does it go?

to get mine to stay at "constant" temp I had to take half the water out of the HERMS pot and constantly fight the tempmate, putting the temp up and down.. very annoying.

 

[yardy]

I'm starting to explore a HERMS design with the HE inside the HLT. Has anyone successfully used this same coil to then cool the wort after boiling? I'm thinking the theory is sound. Once you've done your sparge and spent any leftover hot water cleaning the lines and the MLT, refill the HLT with tap water and ice then pipe your wort back through that coil to cool it.
Maybe even place the kettle inlet at an angle to get a whirlpool going during cooling.
AND has anyone been able to find a single tier solution with only one pump, I keep shuffling my design but it's always 2 pumps, one for wort other for water.
Here's some eye candy I've been drooling over. http://www.wortomatic.com/articles/Baltobr...-Electric-Stand

I'm considering a design that incorporates the heat exchange in the HLT as opposed to an external unit. I also figured I could prepare some ice and use this HLT heat exchange to cool also.

Does anyone have any experience with a similar system?

I was considering the same idea jakub76, did you get anywhere with it ?

cheers

Dave

 

[cdbrown]

gave my herms setup a go for the first time the other day...

I had issues of the MASH temp not being constant and overshooting.. (reading via mashmaster thermo within the MLT and from my probe)

My probe to control the HERMS pot is on the Wort return (sparge arm) Where do everyone else have theses? on MLT out? or Wort return?

I read a couple of articals about forgetting about the MLT probe and control the HERMS pot itself and have it as a constant temp (with stiring of the HERMS pot water) does anyone do this?
if so how does it go?

to get mine to stay at "constant" temp I had to take half the water out of the HERMS pot and constantly fight the tempmate, putting the temp up and down.. very annoying.

My HERMS element is controlled via the temp probe at the outlet of the HERMS. The MLT just has a temp guage on there so I can see what the mash temp is - MLT normally lags a few degrees behind the HERMS and the amount if difference is controlled by the pumping rates.

I don't stir the water of the HERMS pot and not sure why you would as it's a fairly small volume of water.

With the tempmate the element is either receiving full power in order to reach the set point and once it's reached it will cut the power until the temp falls below the temp diff from the set point. A PID will scale the power output to the element depending on how close it is to the set point.

Pumping rates are quite important, slow flow will quickly heat in the HERMS and you may find it comes out too hot as the tempmate isn't quick enough to switch the power off, it will also mean the mash temp won't change as fast as there's only a relatively small amount of wort being exchanged. Faster, less contact time in the coil and it might not get the chance to heat up enough (although this is unlikely) but does have the affect of heating the mash quicker. Fast flow can lead to compact bed and stuck mash so be vary wary of that. I try to do full flow, but make the grist ratio 3L or above if possible to reduce chance of stuck mash.

Try to move the probe back to the outlet from the HERMS so that any overshooting will be minimised by the time the wort is returned to the mash

 

[cdbrown]

I've got a brew planned for tonight - SNPA clone and just want to get some things clear.

So I've got it in Beersmith to have 45L brew as I expect to get roughly 21.5L into each cube and 2L left behind in the keggle. Previously I had it to match the amount I wanted in the cubes but was told beersmith doesn't work that way.

It's set so that I have a pre-boil vol of 40L, evap about 5L during a 60min boil and then top up with 10L at the end. So with 40L into the keggle I've tried to split that amount between 1st and 2nd runnings. 32L mash in (grain absorbs about 12L) and 22L for sparge. My HERMS piping holds roughly 2.5L so I always run water from HLT through the HERMS and into a bucket for a little bit until I'm confident it's filled with fresh hot water before putting it into the MLT for filling. Should I account for that 2.5L in the total mash water or is it just a loss that I keep in mind but not add to beersmith?

As I've said above, I pretty much try and have the HERMS circuit fully open during the mash especially during the temp ramp at mash out. Previously I didn't hit my mash temps so relied heavily on the HERMS to bring it up to temp, but hoping to hit the mash temps to start with and won't need to pump too fast. I do stir up the mash every 10 or 15mins just to ensure there's no compaction. After reading some low efficiency threads I now drain to keggle fairly slowly and will make sure I don't leave the mash paddle in there to create a channel for the wort. Once drained I'll add the sparge water and recirc for 10mins through HERMS before again draining slowly to the keggle.

How does the process and recipe look? I'm adjusting my mill set to increase the gap slightly as I notice a fair bit of flour and completely shredded husks rather than a nice cracked grain. Hope that will help with draining and stuck mash.

SNPA
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 25/11/2010
Style: American Pale Ale Brewer: Craig Brown
Batch Size: 45.00 L Assistant Brewer:
Boil Volume: 40.08 L Boil Time: 60 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 % Equipment: Browntown Double Batch
Actual Efficiency: 11.84 %
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
11.60 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (3.0 EBC) Grain 95.08 %
0.60 kg Crystal, Medium (Bairds) (141.8 EBC) Grain 4.92 %
30.00 gm Magnum [15.60 %] (60 min) Hops 29.4 IBU
30.00 gm Pearle [6.00 %] (30 min) Hops 5.8 IBU
50.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (10 min) Hops 3.1 IBU
100.00 gm Cascade [5.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
2 Pkgs Craftbrewer American Ale (DCL Yeast #US-05) Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.055 SG (1.045-1.060 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.014 SG (1.010-1.015 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Color: 15.5 EBC (9.9-27.6 EBC) Color [Color]
Bitterness: 38.3 IBU (30.0-45.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 22.9 AAU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.30 % (4.50-6.00 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 0.65 %
Actual Calories: 90 cal/l


Mash Profile Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Mash Tun Weight: 15.00 kg
Mash Grain Weight: 12.20 kg Mash PH: 5.4 PH
Grain Temperature: 22.2 C Sparge Temperature: 80.0 C
Sparge Water: 22.48 L Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE

Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 31.82 L of water at 74.4 C 67.8 C 60 min
Mash Out Heat to 80.0 C over 15 min 80.0 C 10 min


Mash Notes
Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage Carbonation Type: Kegged (Forced CO2) Carbonation Volumes: 2.4 (2.3-2.8 vols)
Estimated Pressure: 74.4 KPA Kegging Temperature: 4.0 C
Pressure Used: - Age for: 2.0 Weeks
Storage Temperature: 4.0 C


Notes
10min do at flame out.
0 min added to cube

 

[yardy]

My HERMS element is controlled via the temp probe at the outlet of the HERMS. The MLT just has a temp guage on there so I can see what the mash temp is - MLT normally lags a few degrees behind the HERMS and the amount if difference is controlled by the pumping rates.

gday cd, do you have any pics of your HEX and the where you mounted the temp probe ?

cheers

one for all the HERMits, is it considered better to have the HEX mounted as close to the MLT or will it not matter if there's a bit of a run between the two ?

Dave

 

[Bongchitis]

Hey yardy,

If you have the temp probe directly downstream of the HEX then you probably dont want too much of a run as your return temp to your MLT may be down by a few degrees depending on your insulation, pump speed etc. Generally, The longer the line, the more of a lag/discrepancy between HEX exit temp and final equilibrium temp in the mash. I am trying to design minimum transfer lengths into my HERMS rig.

Cheers mate.


Edit: I know mash temp is not what we are interested in per se but short runs and minimal thermal loss is part of a good process I reckon. 2c

 

[yardy]

Hey yardy,

If you have the temp probe directly downstream of the HEX then you probably dont want too much of a run as your return temp to your MLT may be down by a few degrees depending on your insulation, pump speed etc. Generally, The longer the line, the more of a lag/discrepancy between HEX exit temp and final equilibrium temp in the mash. I am trying to design minimum transfer lengths into my HERMS rig.

Cheers mate.


Edit: I know mash temp is not what we are interested in per se but short runs and minimal thermal loss is part of a good process I reckon. 2c

G'day Bong,

I'll probably be looking at a 300mm run between MLT to HEX- HEX to MLT so 600 overall, maybe less if I can manage it, I'll be insulating everything where I can.

what temp control are you going with ?

cheers

Dave

 

[asis]

Thats nothing yardy.

I have about 300mm from mash to pump, 300mm from pump to HX and I'd say near a metre from Hx back to the tun. Only the return from the Hx is insulated. It could be shorter but I transfer to the kettle through the Hx so need the length.
All silicone hose.

:beer:

 

[yardy]

Thats nothing yardy.

I have about 300mm from mash to pump, 300mm from pump to HX and I'd say near a metre from Hx back to the tun. Only the return from the Hx is insulated. It could be shorter but I transfer to the kettle through the Hx so need the length.
All silicone hose.

:beer:

OK mate

do you have any specs on that ?

temp control, differential etc..

Dave

 

[Bongchitis]

G'day Bong,

I'll probably be looking at a 300mm run between MLT to HEX- HEX to MLT so 600 overall, maybe less if I can manage it, I'll be insulating everything where I can.

what temp control are you going with ?

cheers

Dave

Mate, 600mm total is about as short as you can get I would say so no dramas there. I am using silicone hose for all transfer lines... clean, insulative etc and with cam locks makes for a very flexible process. I will just tuck the tube inside the passive lagging around my BIAB vessel. It is a twin BIAB Herms btw inspired by QldKev.

Temp control will be PID to control the ~2000W heating element in the exchanger based upon HEX outlet temp with constant circulation via a march pump. Its all planned, designed and works in my head but need to weld my rig together.... need to learn how to weld h34r:

Good luck with yours mate.

 

[cdbrown]

Hi Yardy,

HEX is sitting below the MLT so the return distance of silicone tubing is a bit more than the height of a keg. Look Here for an idea of position.

I don't seem to have a photo of the HERMS outlet, but I've got it coming out the wall of the pot where a T-piece is screwed directly into it. One side has the probe screwed in, the other has a barbed connection for the silicone hose. Basically the wort flows into the small stub part of the T, goes around the corner and up into the silicone. The probe is long enough that it sits well into the flow of wort. I had originally planned to have the wort flow straight through the T and the probe into the stub part, but the probe is too long. Hope this description makes sense, if not I can take a pic tonight.

Cheers
-cdbrown

 

[yardy]

Mate, 600mm total is about as short as you can get I would say so no dramas there. I am using silicone hose for all transfer lines... clean, insulative etc and with cam locks makes for a very flexible process. I will just tuck the tube inside the passive lagging around my BIAB vessel. It is a twin BIAB Herms btw inspired by QldKev.

Temp control will be PID to control the ~2000W heating element in the exchanger based upon HEX outlet temp with constant circulation via a march pump. Its all planned, designed and works in my head but need to weld my rig together.... need to learn how to weld h34r:

Good luck with yours mate.

G'day Bong,

Sounds the ducks, looking forward to seeing how it turns out, don't stress the welding side mate, get a little stick welder, some scrap metal and jump in the deep end.

Pm me if you want to talk welders etc

cheers

Hi Yardy,

HEX is sitting below the MLT so the return distance of silicone tubing is a bit more than the height of a keg. Look Here for an idea of position.

I don't seem to have a photo of the HERMS outlet, but I've got it coming out the wall of the pot where a T-piece is screwed directly into it. One side has the probe screwed in, the other has a barbed connection for the silicone hose. Basically the wort flows into the small stub part of the T, goes around the corner and up into the silicone. The probe is long enough that it sits well into the flow of wort. I had originally planned to have the wort flow straight through the T and the probe into the stub part, but the probe is too long. Hope this description makes sense, if not I can take a pic tonight.

Cheers
-cdbrown

G'day CD,

Nice job you did on the rig, makes perfect sense but I would like to see a pic of the outlet if you can post one, no rush though, what's your HEX, an old pot ?

after some advice from Screwy I'm going with this for temp control http://www.craftbrewer.com/shop/details.asp?PID=888

cheers

 

[cdbrown]

Hi Yardy,

Here's the pic as requested. HEX is a 11L (I think) pot from Big W.

 

[yardy]

Hi Yardy,

Here's the pic as requested. HEX is a 11L (I think) pot from Big W.

Nice, thanks for that B)

more questions later..

cheers