Brewing salts for mash ph

[Jack of all biers]

You can't find Carbonate (CO3), because you are looking for only Carbonate, which your water company won't calculate for you. You will need to do a calculation as they haven't provided it and well.....

It's complicated http://comp.uark.edu/~ksteele/hc2004/ALKALINITY-%20CALCULATION.htm

 

[Jack of all biers]

If the calculations on the link I made above are correct then your CO3 level is ~31.5 ppm. That's if I understood it correctly that is..... and did I mention, I'm on my 3rd long neck

 

[MHB]

Ahh you guys are no fun. Where's the mention of calcium being a nutrient to yeast, helps with trub formation, forms an ionic bridge to help yeast floc (it's a metal after all) apart from binding with phosphorous to form phytic acid (hence the oh drop)

Keep it simple, 5gm per 20l is a good start. For 20-50l not really worth doing he molar or computer based calcs.

/// - just 5g of calcium what? I'm not clear on my understanding of these things yet.

Attached is my water report and Brun. In Brun I've been able to fill out the water report tab, can't find Carbonate in the report. I don't know if it goes by an other name. Also under Alkalinity conversion not sure what to put in the first cell. As I can see total hardness and not temp hardness in the report. I can see alkalinity, should I just enter that?

I have filled out the grain bill input (Dark Ale).

Well it isn't going to matter much, CaSO4 Di-Hydrate is 23% Calcium and CaCl2 Di-Hydrate is 27% Ca. These being the two most common forms that the salts are available in. So if we added 5g of either (or a mixture of both) as per Scotties instruction, just to keep it simple lets call it 25% Ca.

5g * 0.25 = 1.25g of Ca (1250mg)
1250mg/20L = 62.5mg/L (or ppm if you prefer)
Add that to the Ca already in the water and you are well inside the 50-100ppm recommended as a minimum amount of Ca required to do the job i.e. "calcium being a nutrient to yeast, helps with trub formation, forms an ionic bridge to help yeast floc (it's a metal after all) apart from binding with phosphorous to form phytic acid"
If you do as /// said you will be close to the "right" answer - and lets face it, better to get it close to right and get on with making decent beer than trying to work out that 4.7g or 5.5g would be a slightly better answer.
If you want to understand water chemistry, you need to start with the basics and build your knowledge. But start by keeping it simple, add 50 to 100ppm of Ca and if you really care get a decent pH meter and adjust the pH.
Mark

 

[///]

5gm or a teaspoon of chloride, or sulphate or combination of both. Some is better than none

 

[Chris79]

If the calculations on the link I made above are correct then your CO3 level is ~31.5 ppm. That's if I understood it correctly that is..... and did I mention, I'm on my 3rd long neck

Thanks for doing the calculation Jack. FYI the link doesn't work.

Well it isn't going to matter much, CaSO4 Di-Hydrate is 23% Calcium and CaCl2 Di-Hydrate is 27% Ca. These being the two most common forms that the salts are available in. So if we added 5g of either (or a mixture of both) as per Scotties instruction, just to keep it simple lets call it 25% Ca.

5g * 0.25 = 1.25g of Ca (1250mg)
1250mg/20L = 62.5mg/L (or ppm if you prefer)
Add that to the Ca already in the water and you are well inside the 50-100ppm recommended as a minimum amount of Ca required to do the job i.e. "calcium being a nutrient to yeast, helps with trub formation, forms an ionic bridge to help yeast floc (it's a metal after all) apart from binding with phosphorous to form phytic acid"
If you do as /// said you will be close to the "right" answer - and lets face it, better to get it close to right and get on with making decent beer than trying to work out that 4.7g or 5.5g would be a slightly better answer.
If you want to understand water chemistry, you need to start with the basics and build your knowledge. But start by keeping it simple, add 50 to 100ppm of Ca and if you really care get a decent pH meter and adjust the pH.
Mark

Thanks Mark. Do appreciate the replies and technical explanation.

Yes I do want to spending some time learning this aspect of brewing and as you can tell I do need to start with the basics, as that is were I am at. Re water chemistry, is Palmers water book a good start, or something different?

5gm or a teaspoon of chloride, or sulphate or combination of both. Some is better than none

Thanks Scottie, that going to be a helpful starting place, like the rest of the replies here :beer:

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Yes I do want to spending some time learning this aspect of brewing and as you can tell I do need to start with the basics, as that is were I am at. Re water chemistry, is Palmers water book a good start, or something different?

Martin Brungard's website is an excellent resource, especially the section on water knowledge.

I also like the water calculator on Brewers Friend, a recent check had their prediction spot on for mash pH.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Thanks for doing the calculation Jack. FYI the link doesn't work.

I see what you mean. Try the link via Google with the one I referred to being the second link with comp.uark.edu at the beginning of the address.

By the way the molar mass calculations for the Prospect North Middle values for both MgCO3 and CaCO3 equates to a total amount of 32.9 ppm CO3 from the two combined. Which is fairly close to the result from the linked calculations. Again, as long as I am calculating correctly that is.

EDIT - tested the link and it works on my computer. If not and you want to find the source, search the words "calculate carbonate from total alkalinity" on Google.

 

[Chris79]

Cheers Lyrebird - I've bookmarked Martin's website/that page. I'll get into that soon. I've started reading Manticle's 10 pg doc, then I'll MHB's thing on water from last Nov.

Cheers Jack. All good, now I know what to search for!

 

[Coalminer]

Updated version of Bru'n Water (v 4.2) just released for registered users

 

[spudfarmerboy]

Depends on what you think an "average" home brewer is.
You don't need a science degree to get the basics right, try reading the Braukaiser section on pH he also covers some of the other issues you have mentioned (L:G stiff mash, temperature steps...) and all in a pretty well worked through way that's not too hard to follow.

Similarly being suspect, but think about this, the old traditional bush billy tea, put the water, tea and sugar in the billy - cold - bring it to the boil, result is a rich tea with no bitterness (tannin).
Do the same thing without the sugar and the tannins are going to give you tea bitter and astringent enough to de-enamel your teeth!
The sugar is blocking the tannins from coming into solution, acid in the sparge water does the same thing, this is also why we can boil a decoction, there is enough sugar to block the tannins.

Mark,
These days I am using a single vessel system (really 2 vessel as I have an urn I use to heat sparge water).
I sparge with anywhere from 8L to about 14L, depending on the boil length of time, using water at 76C.
When I had my 3V system I fly sparged and always acidified the sparge water.
The question I have, is, do I need to acidify my sparge water with the single vessel system?
The malt pipe sits on a rack and I pour the sparge water over the top of the grains, let it drain into the kettle until I have my pre boil volume.
If I need to acidify the sparge water, what sort of pH would I be trying to achieve?
Cheers

 

[MHB]

At 76oC, it may be a bit less important, 76 isn't really ideal as it wont "mash out" or stop residual enzyme activity and get maximum fluidity of the wort, which are the main aims of mashing out. Ideally as close to 80oC as you can get will work better. Worth noting that by the time 76oC water gets to the grain bed it is probably a couple of degrees cooler.
But (and isn't there always a but) the hotter the more chance you have of extracting tannins, so the more important it is to acidify the sparge water (for both BIAB and sparging), mind you for the miniscule cost of a couple of mL of acid (I prefer Lactic) its well worth acidifying in any/every case.

Depending on the amount of sparge water as a proportion of your total water bill, enough to get the kettle full pH to around 5pH or a touch less, the smaller the sparge volume the lower its pH would need to be, I usually add Calcium Lactate and Lactic Acid to my sparge water and am sparging with about 1/3 of the total water (mostly) so I'm sparging at about 4.7pH, the aim being the right Ca and pH when the kettle is full at the start of the boil, the pH will fall further during the boil.
Mark