Decoction Mashing - wort only. No grain No, No grain.

[TwoCrows]

Taking the wort as a decoction after conversion and returning to the main mash to raise the temp to mashout.


I found this article and linked it here: Building A Better Mashout Through Decoction



Here is an excerpt from the article

Now, the rub with decoctions is that they are not fun. Unless you are Steve Cook (who claims that he can decoct one handed while surfing the internet) you will find decoctions to be a pain in the rump. The constant stirring over a hot flame is no one's idea of fun. So why bother? That is to say, why bother with a thick decoction that has to be nannied constantly; why not instead just pull a thin decoction that can be left alone while boiling? I'm talking real thin (keeping in mind that you will not get the full benefit of a thick decoction with this method). Here's how it works: After the starch has converted, drain off a portion of the wort (we'll get to exactly how much in a minute). Drain it through a mesh-strainer -- the kind you would use to skim off scum. There's no need to perform a Vorlauf at this point because all the wort you collect (minus some steam that gets boiled off) is going right back into the tun eventually. By removing whatever husks and grains drain out, you can just simply boil the wort. How long do you boil it for? As long as you feel necessary. This is where the art comes in. I typically let decoctions for mashouts go for fifteen minutes. The longer you boil for, the more caramelized your wort becomes. Then, you simply re-infuse your freshly decocted portion of the wort back into the tun, give it a stir and voila, mashout.

 

[TwoCrows]

I have never done a decoction mash, the grains that I use are well modified and to save a lot of time on brew day I have skipped this method.
I step mash or single infusion and mash out, sparge.

Now I want to do a rye beer, a Roggenbier! Inspired by a well-known AHB member- forum discussion (What are you brewing # 45 )

Doing a decoction step or two is believed to increase the malt flavour, colour and efficiency to harmonize with the rye.

I am wanting to do a decoction, but I am looking for a way to not denature the rye or barley.
It does seem to be an easier way to decoct by taking wort without grain and not having to mother over it.
It could be put in a single vessel with pump recirculation and temp controlled at different steps of the mash and then bring to a boil. Then add back into the main mash.

In this link the brewer who has done a two-stage decoction mash using only the wort/ sweet liquor.

It also happens to be a Roggenbier....

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I made a rye inclusive beer, can't remember the recipe. I have got a small two roller mill which is specifically set for milling rye but the beer came out quite cloudy. It was a few years ago so maybe inexperience. The guy in the video seems to have nailed the clarity.
May have to have another crack after Christmas.

 

[TwoCrows]

I have done rye beers up to 20 % and have enjoyed the spicy smooth mouth feel. Rye and Vienna come to mind.

Milling the rye being a small grain, I was thinking grain condition pre- milling. Sprits with water and allow it to relax prior to milling.

 

[MHB]

I was sort of hoping someone would jump and ask WTF!

Decoction has two very distinct functions (and some incidental ones)
First was to hit mash temperature steps before the invention of thermometers
Second to make more substrate available to enzymes when brewing with undermodified malt (also pretty typical before they invented thermometers)

The second aim isn’t achieved by this process, the heat from decoction frees up starch granules stuck in undermodified malt; gelatinised said starch granules and makes them available to enzymes when the decoction is returned to the main mash. This can’t happen if the grist isn’t heated.
Other processes like Maillard reactions probably aren’t really going to get a proper play either.

Most of the enzymes go into solution; peak dissolution is around 36-38oC; by taking out a decoction that is all liquid you are taking out mostly enzymes and denaturing (killing) them then putting them back into the mash.

As far as I can figure you would be better off just mashing in a little thicker, using some of what would be your mash and sparge water to get your temperature step. Just heat the required water to boiling and stir it in when you want to hit your mashout. Waiting until the mash is over, then taking a decoction would in fact be slower than just heating your step water in a jug/pot/kettle.

No numbers are available in the posts above but if you looked at a "standard" beer.
Rule of thumb is that for every 1kg of grist you will need 6kg (L) of water, one L will be lost to the grist and evaporation and the other 5L will end up in the kettle.
If you mashed in at 2.5-3:1 L:G you would have enough water left over to make a couple of infusions and to sparge with.
I just can’t see the point!
Mark

PS
Rye hasn’t got a husk; malt conditioning is all about making the husk more resilient so it survives milling.
Can’t see that helping all too much.
M