Brewing salts for mash ph

[kaiserben]

I try and keep any adjustments to the bare minimum, but I have often wondered about what happens to those who I have read on here do a 15 litre sparge,
is this going to make any significant difference to the pH especially when using tap water?

I never really detected any issues in finished beer myself, but a couple of comments in competition feedback had me worrying/wondering about this tannins etc etc.

So, after plugging data into the Bru'n Water spreadhseet, these days I acidify my sparge water with 0.5ml of "pure" (96%) phosphoric acid.

I'm loving the way my beers taste these days (but I loved the way they tasted before, so who knows if there's been any significant change there).

 

[GalBrew]

Just be careful with the acid. I got caught. Added a little, not much happened, added a little more, not much happened. Then added the same small dose and the ph hit 3.
Think it has something to do with overcoming the buffering capacity, or black magic ( black magic is easier to understand than water chemistry) :unsure:

pH follows a sigmoid curve, you hit a point where the smallest acid addition will cause the pH to drop off a cliff. Super annoying when pH adjusting large volumes.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I generally do not sparge with any large volume of water, but just wondering about the end results of those who do, I have tried to get my head around Dave Millers thoughts on step mash, stiff mash and effect on pH, but leaves the average home brewer more confused when he goes into detail about the pros and cons of these methods.

 

[manticle]

Like mhb said - break it down into simple, necessary steps.

Inform yourself about whys and wherefores if interested but most of it is just seasoning.

 

[MHB]

Depends on what you think an "average" home brewer is.
You don't need a science degree to get the basics right, try reading the Braukaiser section on pH he also covers some of the other issues you have mentioned (L:G stiff mash, temperature steps...) and all in a pretty well worked through way that's not too hard to follow.

Similarly being suspect, but think about this, the old traditional bush billy tea, put the water, tea and sugar in the billy - cold - bring it to the boil, result is a rich tea with no bitterness (tannin).
Do the same thing without the sugar and the tannins are going to give you tea bitter and astringent enough to de-enamel your teeth!
The sugar is blocking the tannins from coming into solution, acid in the sparge water does the same thing, this is also why we can boil a decoction, there is enough sugar to block the tannins.

 

[MHB]

pH follows a sigmoid curve, you hit a point where the smallest acid addition will cause the pH to drop off a cliff. Super annoying when pH adjusting large volumes.

Not really, the graph of the pH might look a bit like that, but pH is the inverse of the -log of H+ ion concentration. Truth is there isn't a sudden jump in the concentration from similar sized additions, would be more of a power graph if you just plotted the hydrogen ion concentration, you would need a really tall bit of graph paper tho, which is why we use logs and powers to express widely disparate numbers.
M

 

[Jack of all biers]

Post #68 of thread Who bothers with water chemistry is a little example of the change of actual pH that salt and acidulated malt additions can make. Obviously it is a practical example, so only goes for the recipe that I was brewing, but you should get the idea.

I agree with Manticle and MHB, in so far as you don't need to go overboard with it. It can be very simple with the RIGHT knowledge. For example for my brew, I did not need to use acid in the mash to get a very acceptable pH, but by the additions of salts for Ca and flavour profile took it to an "ideal" pH. The acidulated malt took it close to what many consider "the" ideal pH, but it wasn't a necessary addition. The mash would have made just as flavoursome a beer with the pH at 5.33 with only the salt additions and would have been fine without them at the original pH 5.47.

You also don't need a mega accurate pH meter and there are many forum members that have given up testing their mash with a pH meter, as the predicted pH for their brews is always spot on. The strip tests should be good enough to get you within 0.2 pH or so and lets face it 5.1-5.6 is a pretty decent margin anyway. Not all mashes should be exactly on the always sought after 5.2 or 5.3. Just remember that balance is what should be aimed for by salt additions. As MHB said, get your Ca to acceptable levels, but I'd add that you can get just as good a pH adjustment by tweaking your recipe, by adding more acidic malts (not just acidulated malts, but melanoiden, crystal, caramalts, dark malts etc, etc...), than by salt additions.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I try and keep any adjustments to the bare minimum, but I have often wondered about what happens to those who I have read on here do a 15 litre sparge,
is this going to make any significant difference to the pH especially when using tap water?

I sparge with filtered water. Its around pH6. I feel really lucky with this scenario. Melb tap water at 7.3 soft water or filtered is pH6.

Again, I make a mineral profile of around 25% of the Burton on Trent profile. That is based on the size of the brew. Not the total water used. All minerals added to the mash water for first infusion. Then sparge with filtered water that is basically blank at pH6.
I cant think of a reason how this could be a bad thing? Unless someone could I'm all ears.

 

[Chris79]

Depends on what you think an "average" home brewer is.
You don't need a science degree to get the basics right, try reading the Braukaiser section on pH he also covers some of the other issues you have mentioned (L:G stiff mash, temperature steps...) and all in a pretty well worked through way that's not too hard to follow.

Similarly being suspect, but think about this, the old traditional bush billy tea, put the water, tea and sugar in the billy - cold - bring it to the boil, result is a rich tea with no bitterness (tannin).
Do the same thing without the sugar and the tannins are going to give you tea bitter and astringent enough to de-enamel your teeth!
The sugar is blocking the tannins from coming into solution, acid in the sparge water does the same thing, this is also why we can boil a decoction, there is enough sugar to block the tannins.

I was going to ask you Manticle for a link on something more detailed to read re some of the other benefits of getting a desired pH for the style of beer produced. But I've made a bookmark to this page on Kaiser's website. I have read a few other parts of he's website (really good), but will get into this!

I've also bookmarked your post Mark from your talk last year too

 

[Chris79]

Adding salts on their own at best (very pale malt in distilled water) you will have trouble getting the pH below 5.7pH which isn't really ideal, adding a touch of acid lets you get the pH exactly where you want it.
I did a talk at my home brew club a while ago there is a download in post #6 that works through it.

As manticle said the pH isn't the only benefit from using salts properly.
Mark

My local brewshop (The Brew Shop) recommends add a touch of acid malt. I've done that on my last few beers. Which has been about 2% approx of the grain bill.

 

[manticle]

Acid malt or acid are basically the same. I use liquid lactic acid - acidulated malt adds the same product for the same effect (mash not sparge water).

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

I cant think of a reason how this could be a bad thing? Unless someone could I'm all ears.

The filtered water has 3/10 of FA buffering capacity so when it hits the grain bed the pH will rise and this will eventually increase the phenolic extraction.

This only becomes a problem when the extractable dissolved solids fall to a low level (? <3%), at higher solids levels the buffering capacity of the wort dominates.

For many home brewers there is no problem either because their efficiencies are such that they never reach this level or they don't happen to be sensitive to phenolic qualities in beer* (or both).

If you do routinely hit 2-3 oP on the last runnings and do happen to be sensitive to phenolics, the easy fix is 0.1 g/l lactic in the sparge water. I do that routinely but I'm a special snowflake when it comes to phenolics (In defence, they are a huge part of what I do for a living).


* An example is the guy who runs Brulosophy; he appears to have little interest in phenolics.

 

[MHB]

Snip
* An example is the guy who runs Brulosophy; he appears to have litttle interest in phenolics.

Or reality
M

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

So many "t"s, so little time.

 

[manticle]

I was going to ask you Manticle for a link on something more detailed to read re some of the other benefits of getting a desired pH for the style of beer produced. But I've made a bookmark to this page on Kaiser's website. I have read a few other parts of he's website (really good), but will get into this!

I've also bookmarked your post Mark from your talk last year too

Well here's my take from a few years ago:http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/94190-boil-or-filter/?p=1435946

In the linked article (link contains a link), there are some suggested references but brun and kai should see you right.

Brulosophy = make a hoppy beer, design a rough experiment with a million uncontrolled variables and get 4 of your mates to taste for statistical insignificance.

Bang. Brewing science on its ******* head like holm on rousey.

 

[Chris79]

I've started reading that Manticle. Looks like an approachable read!

My friend at Sydney water said he'd get me some more details soon.

Yes I need to read some more of Kaiser soon. Definitely a good source of knowledge!

What do some of you guys dislike about Brulosophy?

Cheers

 

[SBOB]

What do some of you guys dislike about Brulosophy?

Cheers

Im assuming its not dislike for brulosophy (because how can you dislike someone who gets more people interested in homebrewing and also doing some pretty interesting experiments) and more that people who take their results from a single experiment for a single recipe (brewed in a guys garage) where the only judging characteristic is a taste testing, as definitive proof that some brewing concept is completely disproved and should be thrown out the window

 

[MHB]

To me brulosophy is to brewing science what Myth Busters is to real research.
It's entertainment, not R&D.
Mark

 

[manticle]

Myth busters is more entertaining.

 

[SBOB]

To me brulosophy is to brewing science what Myth Busters is to real research.
It's entertainment, not R&D.
Mark

It's not, but they do at least follow some decent scientific/statistical principles

Their results should be taken with consideration that its a sample size of 1, but its a good starting point on the path/discussion to determining whether those brewing rules/practices apply on a homebrew scale in the 'worth the effort' or 'taste the difference' test

I'm sure to anyone brewing professionally its completely irrelevant, but to the guy brewing at home doing things like stressing over the difference between pitching his yeast at 21c instead of 18c or whether his yeast count is exactly right, their results provide some actual results which can reinforce the 'RDWHAHB' mentality