Brewing salts for mash ph

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Chris79

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I'm looking to start using brewing salts to adjust my mash ph.

From some reading I've done in one of Gordon Strong and John Palmer's books, I can raise my mash ph with calcium carbonate and lower it with calcium sulphate or calcium chloride.

Would you use those brewing salts to do this? I'm just thinking of testing this with ph paper strips for now.

After testing to see what the mash ph is first of all, when do you add the salts? At the beginning of the mash or do you wait for 5-10 min etc for it to start to change?

Does the ph typically decrease during the mash?

Cheers
Chris
 
Chris79 said:
Would you use those brewing salts to do this? I'm just thinking of testing this with ph paper strips for now.
Short answer, yes. Long answer, it's complicated. Calcium carbonate is notorious and opinion is mostly in the camp of it doesn't absorb well enough to do much. The Cal.Chloride and Cal.Sulphate will assist the mash to lower the pH, but it only works to a certain level depending on your water profile and the natural buffering power of the mash. It's good you are using some way to test your pH rather than just guessing. Using pH strips that are in the range of 3-6 or so are more accurate than wide ranging pH strips.


Chris79 said:
After testing to see what the mash ph is first of all, when do you add the salts? At the beginning of the mash or do you wait for 5-10 min etc for it to start to change?
I add them with the grains prior to under-letting, however you can add them when you want. If you add them near the beginning then you give the mash more time to equalise at a more ideal pH. How do you predict the pH you are aiming for? Well my advice is to look at Bru'n water or http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/ and play around with it until you get a prediction you are happy with. You will need some sort of water profile to do this with. If you use rain water, just assume your mineral values are zero. If it is mains water you should be able to get your mineral values from your water supplier.


Chris79 said:
Does the ph typically decrease during the mash?
It depends on ingredients, if you add things during the mash, decoct, or have an acid rest etc... A typical single infusion mash for me does reduce slightly (I've an accurate pH meter), but we are talking up to 0.07 pH over 90 mins.
 
Jacks covered it well

My water here is all over the place so went R/O no raintank

Since I did this it makes it easy for me to do the styles I like

Plus one for Brun I have a meter & use it but flew blind for a while but must say Brun gets you very close if you input close
 
Thanks guys.

Jack, is there a better brewing salt to use to raise the mash ph if needed?

Is Cal.Chloride or Cal.Sulphate better then the other?

I'll get the ph strips for my local brew shop on my next order, yes they say their strips are between 3.8 and 5.4.

I haven't had any luck yet finding my water report. I'm in the Parramatta council area, Sydney. Does anyone have the water report for Parramatta council?

Can I input some of my water/ph details into Beersmith (desktop) that I own?

Cheers!
 
Brun is free as far as I know and comprehensive. The water knowledge page will also help understand what's going on.

It's long but you may find a water report for your area here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/31331-big-post-of-water-around-australia/

Otherwise email the water company and explain why you want values for (mean and mostly in ppm or mg/L):

Sodium/Na
Calcium/Ca
Magnesium/Mg
Chloride/Cl
Sulphate/SO4
Zinc/Zn
Bicarbonate/HCO3
pH

You can then input into a spreadsheet, measure 10-15 minutes into the mash and see how close you are.

Remember grain is acidic, dark grain is more acidic than light, that mash pH is more important than water pH and that mash buffers itself, resists change and is reasonably stable once set.

You will only ever need to worry about raising pH in very dark beers - lighter coloured beer will either be close or need acid/acid malt to drop it further.
 
manticle said:
Brun is free as far as I know and comprehensive. The water knowledge page will also help understand what's going on.
There is a free basic, but still quiet comprehensive, version and then for a "contribution" (I made a $10 contribution) Martin Bruingard will send you the full, version

Cheers

Wobbly
 
Chris79 said:
Jack, is there a better brewing salt to use to raise the mash ph if needed?
I have Calcium hydroxide (aka slaked lime, pickling lime or Kalkwasser), but have yet had the need to use it. I got it from this mob and it was the best price I could find.

Chris79 said:
Is Cal.Chloride or Cal.Sulphate better then the other?
Calcium is the bit that helps reduce the pH. The Sulphate and Chloride ions help flavour profiles, not reduce pH. In simplest terms, they both work roughly the same in reducing pH, but Cal. Chlr. brings the maltiness of the brew to the fore and Cal. Sulph. rounds the hop bitterness and brings it to the fore.

Chris79 said:
Can I input some of my water/ph details into Beersmith (desktop) that I own?
No idea, as I have never used Beersmith. Many on here do so they may know. Alternatively have a look yourself and see what it spits out.
 
cheers Manticle. I've download the Brun spreadsheet. I've opened the Big post of water report , and started to work through that. I've make a link to the water knowledge page, will look to work through that when I can.

Cheers Jack, definitely an area, I have lots to learn about. Thanks for the pointers!

Think I'll check out Sydney Water, and see if I can find a water report for where I live.

Chris
 
No worries.

Re lots to learn; You can get books on the subject, but if you use the search function on this site you will pick up lots of tips and tricks (and fails) that you can learn from. But begin at the basics and read some of the free online material like John Palmers online book, then you can build from there.
 
Jack - I've recently started re-reading the all grain brewing parts of Palmers book, and now re-reading again the part on mash ph.

I've gone to Sydney Water's website, and found my water supply is from Prospect North. Attached is I think some of the details I'll need to plug into Bru'n next.

I'll next look into plugging in what I have in that report to Brun.

I'm thinking of brewing a few English beers in a bit, properly starting with a mild, then maybe a best or strong bitter. To give me an overview on how to start to understand this, what might you do with brewing salts to get the mash ph to suit the style?

Here's the water report copy/paste style - couldn't see the attach option under 'more reply'. What's going on there? Hope the below makes enough sense to those who reply here!

iron mg/L 0.3 120 0.016
aluminium mg/L 0.2 28 0.007
manganese mg/L 0.1 120 0.002
copper mg/L 1 28 0.022
zinc mg/L 3 28 0.002
ammonia as NH3 mg/L 0.50 28 0.292
turbidity NTU 5 1,145 0.13
true colour HU 15 28 3
dissolved oxygen % saturation greater than 85% 28 102.3
hardness (total) mg/L 200 28 57.8
pH pH units 6.5-8.5. 7.9 Average of test results between 6.5 - 8.5 pH units Yes

Cheers
 
Throw your hand in and brew it. If your interested the paper tests cant do it. Get a good pH test probe.
Then test your brews. I found the minerals don't make a lot of difference to pH of the mash. In carefully measured added amounts.

Real pH adjustments in my limited expertize.
Darkest beers may need to Raise pH with a tiny tad /chefs discretion of Bi Carb Soda
Light end beers need to lower pH with around 2% or less of Acidulated Malt.

Then the mineral additions are to your desire.

This speaking of Melbourne Water that's filtered. I fell into a good filter on a phone survey believe it or not.
That is like a blank start. Set all to zero and add to, or not?
From the tap pH = 7.3
From the filter pH = 6.3

I usually try to make a water profile of an over all blend. Like 25% of the Burton on Trent profile but tweak that otherwise out of style profile guidelines and eccentric explorations.
 
Chriss. The main ones you want are Chloride, Sulphate, Calcium and Magnesium, total hardness, pH and a few others are very handy.
If you cant link i.e. Prospect Water the snipping tool in windows is very handy (catch)
Prospect Water.JPG

You can really overcomplicate water chemistry. Make sure you have enough Calcium, use Chloride or Sulphate to taste and if you really care, get a decent pH meter and adjust to target with a suitable acid (I use Lactic) or with Acid malt.

The best thing you can do is make sure you get rid of any Chlorine/Chloramine, very bad for beer.
Just glancing at the report, Magnesium is very low, Zinc nearly non-existent (typical Australian water) - actually there is nothing too scary in there
 
Yeah chlorine/chloramine removal and a bit of calcium chloride for malt roundness is all you really need for a good bitter.

If you get into uk ipa or hoppier pale, calcium sulphate is your friend.

That water report doesn't have many of the values I suggested you need - those listed are only of concern if they are way too high, which in AU municipal water, would indicate other issues.
 
Cheers Dan. So you don't bother with brewing salts and just use bi-carb and acid malt to change your pH? Fair call on a pH meter. I think the strips I can buy are said to have a range of 3.8 to to 5.4. Just trying to workout how to keep making better beer, while trying to keep the bulk of the cashflow in the household/family etc.

MHB I didn't think to use the link option. I see that now. And Lactic acid will lower the pH I'm guessing? What do you like about using lactic acid to do that? I assume that's in a liquid form? Yes, do want to keep things simply, but make progress brewing better beer.

Manticle, I have emailed a friend who works at Sydney Water here in Sydney and emailed Sydney Water through their website, telling them what I'm looking for. So are you of the opinion that brewing salts, as you've mentioned here work well enough to change mash pH and boil pH? Once I get some feedback from someone with the values I'm after, I'll look at plugging that data in the Brun. And look to get some input from there!

Cheers
 
Brewing salts change pH. Enough? Depends entirely on the beer. Mostly mid coloured beers with soft water will do ok with just salts. I also think acid is a great option, especially in paler beers.

Salts have a number of benefits - pH is only one of those.
 
Adding salts on their own at best (very pale malt in distilled water) you will have trouble getting the pH below 5.7pH which isn't really ideal, adding a touch of acid lets you get the pH exactly where you want it.
I did a talk at my home brew club a while ago there is a download in post #6 that works through it.

As manticle said the pH isn't the only benefit from using salts properly.
Mark
 
Just be careful with the acid. I got caught. Added a little, not much happened, added a little more, not much happened. Then added the same small dose and the ph hit 3.
Think it has something to do with overcoming the buffering capacity, or black magic ( black magic is easier to understand than water chemistry) :unsure:
 
If you know the pH of your wort, the acid addition required is a pretty simple calculation, my retailer has it written on the bottle.
Water chemistry isn't as complicated as some people make it sound, often these are authors trying to sell a book.
In short: -
Get rid of any Chlorine
Find out what's in your water
Add enough Calcium
Check the pH and adjust

That's the basics and accounts for about 90% of what you really need to do. Yes you can play around with the Chloride/Sulphate balance and there is still a lot of debate about the role of Magnesium - but enough Ca and the right pH is the nuts - everything else is garnish.
Mark
 
I try and keep any adjustments to the bare minimum, but I have often wondered about what happens to those who I have read on here do a 15 litre sparge,
is this going to make any significant difference to the pH especially when using tap water?
 
Depends on the pH of the sparge water. I add a teeny bit of lactic to mine.
 

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