Brew Always Tastes Like Homebrew

[chappo1970]

OK smartass. Brew me a beer with one can of malt, 1kg sugar and 7 grams of generic yeast at 28 degrees, without adding any hops or spec grain and tell me its wonderful.

That shouldnt be a problem with all of your experience.

I'll bite... How dare you accuse Screwy and or bconnery as being smartasses. What you have demostrated to me is your complete lack of respect for very experienced brewers and regular contributors that have a genuine interest in sharing their experience and love of brewing. They always have the interest of the OP at the heart of their comments and contribution. Unlike yourself they both have runs on the board for their abilities and skills and don't need resort to your level of childishness to make a point. I am sick an tired of people like you running down bloody good brewers. The reason AHB is such a good resource is because of blokes like them and not because of assholes like you.

Unfortunately most of us are sick and tired of very bad or half assed advice. With your lack of respect and knowledge all you do degrade what is/was a great forum.

As for your childish and assinine dare? What I would like to see is if you could make those ingredients into beer. Obviously the answer will be no. What you have done is completely missed the point as echoed my Manticle. By the way I would bet my entire brewery that both could make a decent beer over and above yours hands down.

Now I know both Screwy and 007 very well. I know their beers, their recipes and value the experience they bring. Unlike yourself who I see nothing of any worth. I highly respect both of them and often turn to both those guys for their advice and experience which they give freely to those willing to listen.

Son I suggest you suck your head in, delete that stupid post or apologise?

Sick and tired of the bullshit.

Chappo

Edit: I believe ben's response has covered it all OP.

 

[Nick JD]

:blink:



:blink:


Lucky for you an experienced brewer quotes:

I think you'll find that this was what started it, Chappo. Not the best way to help or correct someone's lack of experience, experienced or not.

I fully agree that the wealth of experience here is a great asset ... but it would also be good if the Gods Of Brewing sometimes were a little less malicious and striking with their putdowns.

Just because someone's experienced doesn't mean they can't be an asshole. If I listened everytime someone told me I didn't know how to make beer I'd start to believe them.

 

[Murcluf]

OK smartass. Brew me a beer with one can of malt, 1kg sugar and 7 grams of generic yeast at 28 degrees, without adding any hops or spec grain and tell me its wonderful.

That shouldnt be a problem with all of your experience.

Obviously you have never tired one of GMK's Kit and Kilo award winning marvels, :icon_drool2: you'll never look at K&K in the same way ever again!!!

All stirring aside it is quite possible to make a very good K&K beer and I don't think it is all about what you chuck in the fermenter but more about how you treat what you have put in the fermenter. things let sanitisation, fermentation temps, oxidation, storage, handling of the beer, water & yeast quaility etc.

I do know a couple of K&Ker's who brews, I'm more then happy shove the glass forward and say yes please :icon_cheers:

 

[chappo1970]

I think you'll find that this was what started it, Chappo. Not the best way to help or correct someone's lack of experience, experienced or not.

I fully agree that the wealth of experience here is a great asset ... but it would also be good if the Gods Of Brewing sometimes were a little less malicious and striking with their putdowns.

Just because someone's experienced doesn't mean they can't be an asshole. If I listened everytime someone told me I didn't know how to make beer I'd start to believe them.

Disagree Nick. He qualifies his response by reiterating Ben's (bconnery) tomes of wisdom. I took it more to put emphasis on the misinformation being banned as fact. I can however see how you and the other fella could have taken it that way. But I also know Screwy is a top bloke and is also a bit of an Aussie larickin at heart. Sometimes the written word or a stoopid blinking icon doesn't translate that effectively. What I took offence to was the bullshit dare in such a childish asinine manner. Surely we are above that here?

Sugar as an adjunct is perfectly acceptable in certain styles. What drives that twang IMO is poor yeast management, cleaning regime and the isohops used in cans of goop and too much sugar. It ain't the sugar generally.

What Ben said is completely correct, shit on a stick, I add table sugar to my AG Aussie Lager for that exact reason. Without it, it really misses the mark IMO, and I cannot achieve the flavour profile and mouthfeel without doing so. Sugar does have a place in everyones brewing armourary IMO and shouldn't be viewed as unacceptable brewing adjunct/practice. Like all things in measured quantities it does a great job.

Nick if your ever in Brisvegas I would be honoured to share a few beers for the critique. After then we can lable each other whatever but until then prost and good health :icon_cheers: .

I have had the pleasure of many a good kit and kilo, so before we wheel out the brewing god/AG vs K&Kers crap wagon my comments are purely on the comment that sugar = shit beer. It's wrong full stop.

 

[Rod]

All of the above will help ,

but if the brew is still too sweet for you

add enzyme

available from your LHBS

enzyme acts as a catalyst with yeast and is used to make dry beer and ferments more of the "sugars" out and gives a lower FG

 

[Nick JD]

... my comments are purely on the comment that sugar = shit beer. It's wrong full stop.

Very true. I loves me some sugar in beer.

Recently I made a 5%, "AG" 20L brew with 1.5kg of sugar in it and there was zero twang. It was a great drop - surprised the hell outa me.

My money's on isohop and warm ferment being most responsible for that homebrew taste. Lately I've been going down the slippery road of nitrogen and yeast metabolism and my brain needs a wheel alignment.

I don't think < 20% sugar in beer will ever make it taste bad - maybe not-to-style, but not bad.

I'd like to come up to Brissy sometime and taste other's beer and get some critiques on mine...

 

[ballzac]

Here's my take for better or worse. Let's start with an analogy: why doesn't my Nescafe Blend 43 taste like the Flat Whites at my local Italian Cafe?

They use real beans, freshly ground. You use beans that were ground, made into coffee and then evaporated and put in a can.

They use steam heated milk and very little water. You use lots of water and only a little bit of milk.

Making beer from stuff in cans is not making beer, it's making "homebrew". The very very best brewer's job if challenged to make the best K&K beer he can will alwas be an exercise in hiding those homebrew flavours. It can be done, sort of - it's more difficult than making real beer.

See, to make real beer - just like making real coffee - you have to have the ingredients that real beer is made from. Surprisingly, you can make a real mess of making real beer and still make something that tastes better than K&K.

Try your hands at a small AG brew - 3kg of grain, 30g of PoR hops, S189 yeast and some cheap gear will make Carlton. It's easy, seriously - and when you are drinking your delicious Carlton Clone the first thing that will enter you mind will be, "Shit, I can make any beer I damn well want now".

I would agree on a lot of this, but to produce the type of clear, dry lager that the OP wants may not be quite that easy. We're talking probably adding flaked rice, but this may not quite get the effect he is after, and he might have more luck with cooking the rice and doing a mixed mash. It all starts to get pretty complicated very quickly.

My suggestion would be to simply get a can of fresh unhopped pale malt extract, a kilo of dextrose, an ounce or two of POR, a sachet of saflager (to ferment at 10C) or safale US05 (to ferment at 16C). Four weeks cold conditioning. I reckon a pretty decent dry pale 'lager' can be produced this way. Baby steps

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Also, could people specify what sort of sugar they are referring to? Sugar is a catch all term that covers all of the simple carbohydrates - fermentable and otherwise - that we use in brewing. In some peoples' posts it sound like they're talking about sucrose, in others it sounds like dextrose. It's really quite ambiguous. You could just as easily be talking about lactose or maltodextrin...or maltose for that matter.

For the record, I would use only dextrose in addition to the malt in this type of brew. Sucrose is fine to boost alcohol content in a big beer like a tripel, but is going to give you even more of that 'twang' in a pale, dry lager.

 

[Nick JD]

Baby steps

Horse hockey! Deep end. Jump right in.

 

[scotteth]

There's definitely some good advice above which should all be followed. Finishing hops may help disguise some of the off flavours if your not using these already. I'd steer clear of the dry enzyme - In my opinion its likely to strip out any flavour thats not "kit twang" and leave a pretty awful beer. Maybe do a search for the fake lager recipes in the K&K threads. I think US05 and lower temps could get you closer to something you'll enjoy, and of course check the used by date on the kits, i think they are usually 2 years from manufacture?

 

[chappo1970]

I'd like to come up to Brissy sometime and taste other's beer and get some critiques on mine...

Nick my door is always wide open to brewers and as demostrated by this weekends brew day for CM2. I am happy to host such things for those brewers, and your good self, that extend themselves to this forum. I would think it plain rude now if you didn't drop in for a g'day :icon_cheers: . As for the critique... well that's free service :beerbang:

 

[Screwtop]

1. My brew always has a "homebrew" finish. Its always sweetish, and I always used the spec ingrediance. I think about a few beers I enjoy, for instance: Tooheys New, and Carlton dry: If I was to drink those 2 one after the other, I would'nt sit back and go, "yep, they used the same brewing process".

How ever, when I have ANY of my homebrew after each other, for instance a Draught and a Ceveza, sure they taste completely different, but in that second after swallowing (and until the next mouthful) I just taste homebrew.

My next brew, Im going to try a tooheys whitestag (any suggestions would be great too.) This will include the addition of the dry enzyme. If any of you know, if this takes the "homebrew" sweetish finish off, let me know. Otherwise I will post my conclusions.

Its a long post, and the questions may be hard to find but any help will be greatly appreciated.

Just to reitterate the questions:
1. How do I get rid of the "homebrew" sweetish taste

Time I chimed in then.

HAve a read of the OP.
This guy joined last April

Twang is not inherent in kit beers, and it can be eliminated. I know because I have made some good kit beers, never what I would class as fantastic but have had kit beers made by other brewers that were fantastic.

3. Use less (or no) sugar

This is not good advice to give a new brewer, sugar does not cause a sweetish taste. Sugar in all of its forms including table sugar, is used in brewing beer. Malt extracts produce wort that is less fermentable and sugar actually helps to increase attenuation and result in a beer that is less sweet.

+1 Boobiedazzler's points

Also,

Look into Partials, heaps of info on this site. Basically using a bit of grain to help with flavour!

But adding hops to a Kit will do a lot for your beer and is a simple addition to your process!

:icon_cheers:

You agreed with the bad advice but gave some good advice. Where does that leave our newb brewer?

This stuff stays here forever, newbs in the future will search and find advice that is not good/correct. Just plain pisses me off!!

Jump up and down and beat your chests, I don't give a shit!

Screwy

 

[Screwtop]

As for the critique... well that's free service :beerbang:

Unless they beat us in the SOO, then it's your hourly rate, right :lol:

Screwy

 

[chappo1970]

Unless they beat us in the SOO, then it's your hourly rate, right :lol:

Screwy

:lol:

 

[Liam dee]

So... This got out of hand quick... haha

OK... You want more info:

My fermenter is currently in the laundry sitting at approximately 20*C fairly consistantly.

My take on my favorite beers:

Carlton dry - easy drinking in any weather, not exactly dry finish in comparison to others, tasty, 10x better then TED's, sweetish finish, cannot drink carton after carton.
Tooheys whitestag - Easy drinking in any weather, dry finish, low carb = non bloating, good during meal, very tasty, classic aussi beer taste, without tasting cheap.
Stella - Beautiful beer, sort of a extra light fruity finish, makes me aggressive and unreasonable = must avoid.
James boags Premium - Beautiful beer, classically lager, aromatic, 5% which is hard to find now days, nicer colder weather beer, EXPENCIVE!
Little creatures - Classical australian boutique beer, noticable by its fruityness throughout the range. Rarely drink it, but is good comparison of what id call extra fruity beer, extremely aromatic

Now... I went down to the LHBS today and stated my case to the dude there. He said to try adding hops, and using a different yeast. He said the next step is, waiting till the brew stops bubbling alot, and switching it to another fermenter. This is because the dead yeast leaves alot of flavours. He said to limit temp fluctuation, and that dry enzyme should help to get rid of the sweetish homebrew taste im refuring to.

"homebrew" taste: noun, To start with a bitter taste for roughly .25 of a second and then turn sweet almost immediatly, leaving no taste of what the actual style of the brew was, but leaving with the strong memory of the fact that what you did just consume, was not a beer bought by the carton at a local bottle shop. A.K.A "twang"

All of these rough and undeveloped takes on beer come from a 22 Year old, who considers himself decent with beer for his age, but also thinks that Emu Export tastes ok warm, and ok ice cold, but extremely shite just chille

Try not to argue this time guys, lol cheers

- Liam

 

[Liam dee]

OH OH!!!!

I Forgot to add... My new brew:

Can of Coopers Lager (green can)
#11 Brew booster (Brew cellars)
Premium Lager Yeast (brew cellars 15g)
Pride of Ringwood finishing hops
Dry Enzyme

- its the Brew cellars Tooheys new replica, with the dry enzyme added in to get it dryer
I shall post results...
Oh and by the way... I like to master the simple stuff before i move onto the AG... cheers for the advice though guys

 

[ballzac]

Don't use POR for dry hopping. It's really only appropriate for bittering.

EDIT: IMHO

 

[hamstringsally]

Here's my take for better or worse. Let's start with an analogy: why doesn't my Nescafe Blend 43 taste like the Flat Whites at my local Italian Cafe?

They use real beans, freshly ground. You use beans that were ground, made into coffee and then evaporated and put in a can.

They use steam heated milk and very little water. You use lots of water and only a little bit of milk.

Making beer from stuff in cans is not making beer, it's making "homebrew". The very very best brewer's job if challenged to make the best K&K beer he can will alwas be an exercise in hiding those homebrew flavours. It can be done, sort of - it's more difficult than making real beer.

See, to make real beer - just like making real coffee - you have to have the ingredients that real beer is made from. Surprisingly, you can make a real mess of making real beer and still make something that tastes better than K&K.

Try your hands at a small AG brew - 3kg of grain, 30g of PoR hops, S189 yeast and some cheap gear will make Carlton. It's easy, seriously - and when you are drinking your delicious Carlton Clone the first thing that will enter you mind will be, "Shit, I can make any beer I damn well want now".

ive struggled for years fighting the can homebrew taste and have to say after going all grain in the last six months i couldnt agree with you more beer god and your coffee analogy. after getting your temp controls down for fermentation and smashing out a few all grains and having a little bit of understanding about what your doing and why not only is it more rewarding when you drink it but it really does taste amazing even if your mash temps are outor you get something wrong. i have learnt so much off everyone on this site and wouldnt be brewing good beer if i didnt ask questions here.

amin

 

[bconnery]

So... This got out of hand quick... haha

OK... You want more info:

My fermenter is currently in the laundry sitting at approximately 20*C fairly consistantly.

My take on my favorite beers:

Carlton dry - easy drinking in any weather, not exactly dry finish in comparison to others, tasty, 10x better then TED's, sweetish finish, cannot drink carton after carton.
Tooheys whitestag - Easy drinking in any weather, dry finish, low carb = non bloating, good during meal, very tasty, classic aussi beer taste, without tasting cheap.
Stella - Beautiful beer, sort of a extra light fruity finish, makes me aggressive and unreasonable = must avoid.
James boags Premium - Beautiful beer, classically lager, aromatic, 5% which is hard to find now days, nicer colder weather beer, EXPENCIVE!
Little creatures - Classical australian boutique beer, noticable by its fruityness throughout the range. Rarely drink it, but is good comparison of what id call extra fruity beer, extremely aromatic

Now... I went down to the LHBS today and stated my case to the dude there. He said to try adding hops, and using a different yeast. He said the next step is, waiting till the brew stops bubbling alot, and switching it to another fermenter. This is because the dead yeast leaves alot of flavours. He said to limit temp fluctuation, and that dry enzyme should help to get rid of the sweetish homebrew taste im refuring to.

"homebrew" taste: noun, To start with a bitter taste for roughly .25 of a second and then turn sweet almost immediatly, leaving no taste of what the actual style of the brew was, but leaving with the strong memory of the fact that what you did just consume, was not a beer bought by the carton at a local bottle shop. A.K.A "twang"

All of these rough and undeveloped takes on beer come from a 22 Year old, who considers himself decent with beer for his age, but also thinks that Emu Export tastes ok warm, and ok ice cold, but extremely shite just chille

Try not to argue this time guys, lol cheers

- Liam

Alright, based on that post I'd say the first thing you want to get, before you consider heading towards extract or AG, is a fridge and temperature control so you can do lagers. With a fridge and a controller you can ferment at the 10-15 the lager yeasts want to be really ideal.
I do agree that extract and AG will produce better beers, but if lagers are what you like a fridge is essential regardless of your brewing method.

You clearly like the clean and crisp flavour in your beers.
Little Creatures is a good example of an American Pale Ale, light malt but a strong fruity hop presence. You don't seem to mind it, but clearly your taste head towards more to the lager end...

If you ferment with a proper lager yeast, at the right temp, with some lagering, and a lager kit, I think you'll get something closer to what you want.

 

[ballzac]

ive struggled for years fighting the can homebrew taste and have to say after going all grain in the last six months i couldnt agree with you more beer god and your coffee analogy. after getting your temp controls down for fermentation and smashing out a few all grains and having a little bit of understanding about what your doing and why not only is it more rewarding when you drink it but it really does taste amazing even if your mash temps are outor you get something wrong. i have learnt so much off everyone on this site and wouldnt be brewing good beer if i didnt ask questions here.

amin

I agree. I have never made a bad beer using only grain. However, I think a great beer can be made with extract, which is hard to do with kit tins. The OP does not want to get too complicated with things, and I think boiling a bit of hops in extract would be beneficial, without going to the effort of going AG. However, AG is definitely not difficult for those who want to put in the extra effort, and IMO is worth the extra effort.

With a fridge and a controller you can ferment at the 10-15 the lager yeasts want to be really ideal.

15 is a bit high for a lager yeast IMO. I wouldn't go above 12. I used to live in yapeen, near castlemaine. I brewed a couple of extract pilseners and just fermented them at ambient temperatures. The temperature of the wort would fluctuate between about 4C and 9C in winter. It took almost 3 months to completely ferment out, but was very clean and well attenuated after that. I was quite happy with the quality with no lagering period. So, although temperature control is important for lagers, I think it is more important to avoid going too high than avoiding going too low. It also depends how patient you are, and what ambient temperatures you achieve.

In suburban Melbourne, I have fermented lagers that fluctuate between about 8C and 12C, which ferment out after a month or so. Subsequently lagering at ~2C for 6-8 months has given me nice results. Definitely, if you were at around the 15C mark I would go for an ale yeast, but if the temp dropped much below that it might be difficult to get it going again.

It would be fallacious to assume that, at a given temperature, a lager yeast will be cleaner than an ale yeast. In fact, a lager yeast may produce MORE esters than an ale yeast if fermented at 15 or 16C. Lager yeast have a very clean profile only when fermented at the recommended temperatures.

 

[tavas]

Hi Liam

I found my brews improved in taste by soaking my fermenter in bleach solution for 24 hours after my last brew. I used to hot rinse it and clean it with a cloth to remove gunk, then sanitise it with SMBS (prior to brewing) but noticed it always had an odour in the fermenter (like the last brew). After reading some posts on here, I soaked the fermenter with diluted bleach (unscented White King, about 100 mls per 25 litres), left it for a day and then hot rinsed it until the chlorine smell went. My fermenter was only 3 or 4 brews old at the time. i now use bleach to sanitise (always rinse it well before brewing) and smells have gone and taste has improved.

I also found that taste imprves a lot after 6 weeks, but depending on how much ready to drink I have, it sometimes doesn't last for 6 weeks

I always live by the adage that no matter how bad my homebrew tastes, it will still taste better than VB.

Hope that helps.