Brew Always Tastes Like Homebrew

[bconnery]

It would be fallacious to assume that, at a given temperature, a lager yeast will be cleaner than an ale yeast. In fact, a lager yeast may produce MORE esters than an ale yeast if fermented at 15 or 16C. Lager yeast have a very clean profile only when fermented at the recommended temperatures.

Yes. But 15C is within the recommended range for most dry lager yeasts. Yes at the top end, but within the recommended range.
Yes, 9-12 is ideal but I included 15 as it is a temp that is often achievable in winter in many cases without temperature control.

At no stage did I assume that a lager yeast would be cleaner than an ale yeast for a given temperature, which is why I have specifically lager temperatures in my post.

I'm pretty familiar with the difference in ester production between lager and ale yeasts, and the subsequent effect on beer and requirements for diacetyl rests and/or lagering, which is what drove my advice for the OP.

 

[paulwolf350]

OH OH!!!!

I Forgot to add... My new brew:

Can of Coopers Lager (green can)
#11 Brew booster (Brew cellars)
Premium Lager Yeast (brew cellars 15g)
Pride of Ringwood finishing hops
Dry Enzyme

- its the Brew cellars Tooheys new replica, with the dry enzyme added in to get it dryer
I shall post results...
Oh and by the way... I like to master the simple stuff before i move onto the AG... cheers for the advice though guys

Bet $100 it still tastes like homebrew, 1000s of us started in kits, but we all drink ag now...........why?

Hi Liam

I found my brews improved in taste by soaking my fermenter in bleach solution for 24 hours after my last brew. I used to hot rinse it and clean it with a cloth to remove gunk, then sanitise it with SMBS (prior to brewing) but noticed it always had an odour in the fermenter (like the last brew). After reading some posts on here, I soaked the fermenter with diluted bleach (unscented White King, about 100 mls per 25 litres), left it for a day and then hot rinsed it until the chlorine smell went. My fermenter was only 3 or 4 brews old at the time. i now use bleach to sanitise (always rinse it well before brewing) and smells have gone and taste has improved.

I also found that taste imprves a lot after 6 weeks, but depending on how much ready to drink I have, it sometimes doesn't last for 6 weeks

I always live by the adage that no matter how bad my homebrew tastes, it will still taste better than VB.

minus eleventy billion,

this is the bad advice screwy was talking about, and is the reason why people dont give advice on the forum, chlorine (bleach) should NEVER be used in brewing regardless of how good you think your beer tastes.

Paul

 

[ballzac]

Yes. But 15C is within the recommended range for most dry lager yeasts. Yes at the top end, but within the recommended range.
Yes, 9-12 is ideal but I included 15 as it is a temp that is often achievable in winter in many cases without temperature control.

At no stage did I assume that a lager yeast would be cleaner than an ale yeast for a given temperature, which is why I have specifically lager temperatures in my post.

I'm pretty familiar with the difference in ester production between lager and ale yeasts, and the subsequent effect on beer and requirements for diacetyl rests and/or lagering, which is what drove my advice for the OP.

Yep, understood. Just wanted to make sure it was clear for the OP

 

[ballzac]

It's been a wile since I've had any beers such as the ones you want to emulate, but here's an idea for a recipe. A guide only, and others may have better ideas for the specific flavour you are after:

3kg pilsener (or other pale) liquid malt extract
1kg dextrose (glucose)
50g 9%AA POR pellets (boiled 60 min)
Fermentis Saflager S-23
Final volume 26L

This would fit in a 30L fermenter and should not blow out at low temperatures, but you'd want to be careful if the temp is higher. The recipe could easily be scaled down, but I wrote this based on the fact that it's exactly two 1.5 kilo tins of liquid, and 1 bag of dextrose.

If you don't have a large enough pot for the 30+ litres of pre-boil volume, you can just use half a can of the extract with 5 litres or so of water in, say, a 9L stock pot. The hop utilisation can be a bit lower though and you might want to up the hops slightly. It's not ideal, but I've done it in the past and had good results.

Good luck in all your efforts. Just remember, the more effort you put in, the better your beer will be. Have fun experimenting

 

[manticle]

minus eleventy billion,

this is the bad advice screwy was talking about, and is the reason why people dont give advice on the forum, chlorine (bleach) should NEVER be used in brewing regardless of how good you think your beer tastes.

Paul

I'm a little confused. A lot of people use unscented bleach as a sanitiser (including myself and including Screwtop) - you just need to make super sure that it's either rinsed properly (I use boiling water followed by sodium met, followed by cold water followed by starsan) or supposedly used in no rinse proportions (which I don't trust but the guy from star san does).

Sorry if I've misunderstood what you meant.

 

[ballzac]

Oh, and do we know your location Liam? In Melbourne you could do a lager without proper temperature control at the moment. No idea about other states though. If you don't have a spare fridge to lager in, you can cold condition in the bottle after carbonating. Fill up your fridge with as many bottles as you can fit. 4C isn't ideal, but will give you decent results.

 

[michaelcocks]

It's been a wile since I've had any beers such as the ones you want to emulate, but here's an idea for a recipe. A guide only, and others may have better ideas for the specific flavour you are after:

3kg pilsener (or other pale) liquid malt extract
1kg dextrose (glucose)
50g 9%AA POR pellets (boiled 60 min)
Fermentis Saflager S-23
Final volume 26L

This would fit in a 30L fermenter and should not blow out at low temperatures, but you'd want to be careful if the temp is higher. The recipe could easily be scaled down, but I wrote this based on the fact that it's exactly two 1.5 kilo tins of liquid, and 1 bag of dextrose.

If you don't have a large enough pot for the 30+ litres of pre-boil volume, you can just use half a can of the extract with 5 litres or so of water in, say, a 9L stock pot. The hop utilisation can be a bit lower though and you might want to up the hops slightly. It's not ideal, but I've done it in the past and had good results.

Good luck in all your efforts. Just remember, the more effort you put in, the better your beer will be. Have fun
experimenting

50gm of 9%aa por would be a heck of alot of ibu's and probably above the style that the op is shooting for
most of his named Aussie lagers would be around 25ibu wouldn't they ?

 

[ballzac]

Yeah, you're probably right works out to about 40IBU. 30g then?

 

[jakub76]

Your new brew looks a heap better than a standard kit, I'm sure it'll be an improvement. See what an innocent question and a hilarious bitch fight can do. I'm not sure what starin that yeast is but I have read that S-189 is a very forgiving lager yeast that will tolerate higher temperatures. So if you haven't got temp control but really want to make a lager it could be a solution.
Best.

OH OH!!!!

I Forgot to add... My new brew:

Can of Coopers Lager (green can)
#11 Brew booster (Brew cellars)
Premium Lager Yeast (brew cellars 15g)
Pride of Ringwood finishing hops
Dry Enzyme

- its the Brew cellars Tooheys new replica, with the dry enzyme added in to get it dryer
I shall post results...
Oh and by the way... I like to master the simple stuff before i move onto the AG... cheers for the advice though guys

 

[boobiedazzler]

Whoa up there, men/boys.

This all started from my innocent and genuine 4-Point considerations to the OP. I gathered from the tone of his descriptors that he is a new brewer, into K&K, not so up to speed on the various sciences behind this brewing art of ours, and maybe wrongly, but maybe not, assumed he was using a buttload of white sugar. And, no offense to the OP, but he said that he wants to do a whitestag clone.

All I did was throw forward a few points. The shit that has started, and in which I was vilified by Screwtop as a a brewing illiterate old bitch that knows **** all, was the comment on sugar.

For the record it was "USE LESS (OR NO) SUGAR". Shoud I have elaborated on invert candi syrup being a key part of many belgians? Does the OP need to know about this in his early stages into the craft ? NO, because it would detract from the helpfulness that I was trying to impart.

Quite simply, the comment on sugar was, and still is IMO, a valid point for his reference point. Maybe he will say 'oh, then I'll add more DME next time'. Later on he might wonder where that powdered malt comes from, and start to steep some crystal. Before you know it he'll be brewing AG with his learned considerations, and hopefully making award winning brews that will kick Chappo's ass.

My only gripe was that Screwtop slapped my bitch face as being some sort of greenhorn because I dared suggest LESS sugar in the OP's brews. Sure we can argue a sophisticsted pallete sweetness being more apparent with malt than highly attenuated sugar, but look at the Whole picture. I included the facets of hopping to offest the sweet perception, the better yeast so not to impart undesirable hydroxyl compounds during the fermentation process - ditto for ferm temps, and rounded it out with the 'more time in the bottle' conditioning process.

So I called Screwtop a smartass. On reflection, it was a bit rude. So for that I apologise.

No idea why or how you thought that bconnery was targeted. Shivers, he mostly agreed with me, and kindly elaborated on most of my bullet points to the OP.

At Chapo. I think you have really over-reacted, and I hope my comments above serve to explain where Im coming from.

 

[Barley Belly]

As wise sage once told me the three basic steps to homebrewing:-

1) Cleanliness

2) Temperature Control

3) Quality Ingredients

In that order
Without 1 and 2 forget 3

 

[bconnery]

Bet $100 it still tastes like homebrew, 1000s of us started in kits, but we all drink ag now...........why?



minus eleventy billion,

this is the bad advice screwy was talking about, and is the reason why people dont give advice on the forum, chlorine (bleach) should NEVER be used in brewing regardless of how good you think your beer tastes.

Paul

I used diluted bleach as my sanitiser, with a little white vinegar, for a long time. This is a commonly used sanitiser.
It can be no rinse provided the concentrations are all correct. It is all reliant on the % of sodium something in your bleach too from memory.
There's a lot of information around about it, including from an interview on basic brewing radio where the founder of 5 Star Chemicals discusses its benefits and use in a homebrew situation.
I'm aware that many people shudder at the idea of introducing bleach but in the parts per million being talked about it is safe if used correctly.

I do think it's good advice to change sanitisers occasionally. Keeps the bugs on their toes...

 

[bconnery]

Whoa up there, men/boys.

This all started from my innocent and genuine 4-Point considerations to the OP. I gathered from the tone of his descriptors that he is a new brewer, into K&K, not so up to speed on the various sciences behind this brewing art of ours, and maybe wrongly, but maybe not, assumed he was using a buttload of white sugar. And, no offense to the OP, but he said that he wants to do a whitestag clone.

All I did was throw forward a few points. The shit that has started, and in which I was vilified by Screwtop as a a brewing illiterate old bitch that knows **** all, was the comment on sugar.

For the record it was "USE LESS (OR NO) SUGAR". Shoud I have elaborated on invert candi syrup being a key part of many belgians? Does the OP need to know about this in his early stages into the craft ? NO, because it would detract from the helpfulness that I was trying to impart.

Quite simply, the comment on sugar was, and still is IMO, a valid point for his reference point. Maybe he will say 'oh, then I'll add more DME next time'. Later on he might wonder where that powdered malt comes from, and start to steep some crystal. Before you know it he'll be brewing AG with his learned considerations, and hopefully making award winning brews that will kick Chappo's ass.

My only gripe was that Screwtop slapped my bitch face as being some sort of greenhorn because I dared suggest LESS sugar in the OP's brews. Sure we can argue a sophisticsted pallete sweetness being more apparent with malt than highly attenuated sugar, but look at the Whole picture. I included the facets of hopping to offest the sweet perception, the better yeast so not to impart undesirable hydroxyl compounds during the fermentation process - ditto for ferm temps, and rounded it out with the 'more time in the bottle' conditioning process.

I still don't agree though. His main complaint was a homebrew taste, and a sweetness. If he is using some sugar then removing it and replacing it with DME, or grain, is going to increase that sweetness.
He mentions a recipe with 500g malt and 350g sugar. Taking that as a baseline for the sort of recipes he is using then decreasing the sugar is only going to increase the perception of sweetness to me.
Increasing the hops, especially if, as is likely not to be doing much in the way of bittering additions, isn't necessarily going to counteract that.

 

[Oatlands Brewer]

same thing here with the bleach

The other thing i do after ive cleaned my fermenters, in readyness for the next batch is after bleach cleaning i stand them in the direct sun...Im not sure if there is any merit to it but my wife suggested it and there is no bleach smell after.

once there dry i loosely srew the lids back on and there ready to go after a SMBS treatment just before brewing

Oh and by the way Liam, Manticle and I were just muckin around....sorry for hijackin your thread the other night...... :beer:

 

[Verbyla]

Just wondering about the unhopped cans of malt extract that people have suggested using. Do they have any spec grain in them or are they just the same as the dried malt extract?

 

[Rod]

All of the above will help ,

but if the brew is still too sweet for you

add enzyme

available from your LHBS

enzyme acts as a catalyst with yeast and is used to make dry beer and ferments more of the "sugars" out and gives a lower FG

I posted this

but personally have only made one or two batches

I like my bear a bit sweeter and most beers ( stove top brews ) I make end up at 1012 FG

I do not even like commercial dry beer , not that I buy much commercial beer no a days

 

[Screwtop]

I'm a little confused. A lot of people use unscented bleach as a sanitiser (including myself and including Screwtop) - you just need to make super sure that it's either rinsed properly (I use boiling water followed by sodium met, followed by cold water followed by starsan) or supposedly used in no rinse proportions (which I don't trust but the guy from star san does).

Sorry if I've misunderstood what you meant.

I used diluted bleach as my sanitiser, with a little white vinegar, for a long time. This is a commonly used sanitiser.
It can be no rinse provided the concentrations are all correct. It is all reliant on the % of sodium something in your bleach too from memory.
There's a lot of information around about it, including from an interview on basic brewing radio where the founder of 5 Star Chemicals discusses its benefits and use in a homebrew situation.
I'm aware that many people shudder at the idea of introducing bleach but in the parts per million being talked about it is safe if used correctly.

I do think it's good advice to change sanitisers occasionally. Keeps the bugs on their toes...

Bleach has been part of my sanitisation routine ever since experiencing a ropey bacillus infection about 2001. Have posted lots about this on AHB and elsewhere before today. No more comment as there has been enough waffle on this thread already, apologies to the OP.

Screwy

 

[matt.barrenger]

It's been a wile since I've had any beers such as the ones you want to emulate, but here's an idea for a recipe. A guide only, and others may have better ideas for the specific flavour you are after:

3kg pilsener (or other pale) liquid malt extract
1kg dextrose (glucose)
50g 9%AA POR pellets (boiled 60 min)
Fermentis Saflager S-23
Final volume 26L

This would fit in a 30L fermenter and should not blow out at low temperatures, but you'd want to be careful if the temp is higher. The recipe could easily be scaled down, but I wrote this based on the fact that it's exactly two 1.5 kilo tins of liquid, and 1 bag of dextrose.

If you don't have a large enough pot for the 30+ litres of pre-boil volume, you can just use half a can of the extract with 5 litres or so of water in, say, a 9L stock pot. The hop utilisation can be a bit lower though and you might want to up the hops slightly. It's not ideal, but I've done it in the past and had good results.

Good luck in all your efforts. Just remember, the more effort you put in, the better your beer will be. Have fun experimenting

Hey Ballzac,

I am keen to try my first extract - have been doing full batch boil K&k's for about 2 years now, with fridge/temp controller.

This recipie seems like a great place for me to start.
I may try the 30 g of POR hops as suggested in another post.
A few questions I have:

1: Would Coopers light malt extract can be ok?
2: What difference would you expect by using coopers light malt?


Cheers

Beaker

 

[ballzac]

Hey Ballzac,

I am keen to try my first extract - have been doing full batch boil K&k's for about 2 years now, with fridge/temp controller.

This recipie seems like a great place for me to start.
I may try the 30 g of POR hops as suggested in another post.
A few questions I have:

1: Would Coopers light malt extract can be ok?
2: What difference would you expect by using coopers light malt?


Cheers

Beaker

I'm not sure whether I've used the coopers one. Been a while since I've used extract. Most pale, unhopped, extracts are pretty similar. Sometimes the pilsener ones are a bit paler than others, but not always. It will be fine, but others who have used it might have more specific info on it.

 

[Liam dee]

Ok...

Thanks for all your help guys. A few key points:
I always keep my kit clean
I never use table sugar. If I ever use anything thats not a brew enhancer or wet malt, I use dextrose
I always use quality ingrediance (except for this brew which called for a coopers lager green can... see how that goes)

The amount of info has been overwhelming. So i just pick out what i understand and can use... The key points I have picked up from this site and the LHBS is:
(and correct me if im wrong)
*asside from the basics, keep your kit clean, never use caster sugar, things of that nature
*Keep temperature low and constant
*Use hops to get a better taste and aroma
*Switch fermenters when brew stops bubbling, dead yeast can add an undesirable flavour

There where another few key points... i think they where:
*use AG
*use AG
*Use AG

... but until i get some more expirience, ill keep using K&K... You guys are right, I'm very novice at this but I plan on getting better.
Thanks to all that helped. I shall post results of my whitestag copy.

One more thing... It seems a few of you that have posted, sound like you havent tryed a "tailor made" beer from a shop recently. I suggest you go out, and get even just one. The taste may be different, supprising, and give you something to aim towards. After all diversity wasnt just an old wooden ship. A few newish beers on the market I would recommend.

*Sail and anchor dry dock - W.A beer
*Coopers 62 Pilsner - Incredibly smooth
*stienlager Pure - N.Z beer, dunno what there doing there but pretty smooth, tasty little number

Cheers again guys.
- Liam