What do you use to increase temps of your FV safely? heat belt? light?

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The ambient temp in the fridge would be slightly lower than the wort if cooling, higher if heating.

Get a fridge and a controller and you wont look back. When the wort's temp is being controlled, it just takes longer to ferment.

Getting a fridge and controller for under $200.00 in total is the cheapest part of fermenting, get a big fridge put in a big fermenter ......
 
gunn said:
If you have the probe on the outside of the FV (with some insulation from ambient air as well) then how long does the compressor run and how cold does the ambient temp get before the liquid temperature can change enough for the relay to cutout? It runs as it would if it was plugged directly into the wall. Does the FV liquid temp then continue to get colder (as the fridge ambient air is still low) untill it is now necessary for a heating output? Not in my experience, perhaps half a degree if that, not worth worrying about. How long does it need to heat to now bring that temperature back to the desired point? What about people who dont use heaters in their fridges? If you have a heater, what type of heater is it? Does it heat in the middle of the FV? Does it "overheat" the lower/centre of the beer before the sensor can see this and then stop the heating output?

I feel like there is way too many variables, too many considerations. just keep ambient temp as constant as you can and let the yeasties go to work.

The only other solution in my mind is with glycol systems.
The reason I measure the wort temp is because doing that gets it down to where I want to ferment at much quicker than setting the ambient temp to a couple of degrees lower does. Once it gets there it stays within a 0.3C range, except for maybe that first slight drop below. Once that rises back up it stays where I set it. It could be fermenting at who knows what temp doing it the other way. And no, the temp doesn't drop below the set point once fermentation finishes - it just takes longer to rise the 0.3C before the STC kicks the fridge back in again. I do let it wander up 2-3C towards the end of fermentation though.
 
How much of a difference do you think a 0.1 degree temp lag compared to a 0.3 or 0.5 degree lag will actually make to your finished beer? Now where is that pencil??
 
Rocker1986 said:
I know that's not directed at me but the answer would be sweet **** all... :D
Not at all, just putting it out there to the room. I agree fully with your thoughts on the matter!
 
Interestingly enough your argument as to what difference 0.2 deg of difference/lag makes to the final product actually gives greater merit as to why you would control ambient fridge temp as oppose to trying to control the cooling/heating cycles based on the temp of the beer.
At the end of the day if you are convinced you are accurately measuring the temp of your beer and controlling your heating cooling cycles to efficiently maintain the beer within .5 deg of any set point, with no short cycling, oscillation or overshoot you should stick with that method.

For my own needs I find that trying to control cooling based on thermostatic control of a slower reacting medium (up to 120l of liquid) is both inaccurate and inefficient and only becomes more accurate and efficent after a enough time that the ambient temp reaches an equilibrium with the temp of the beer. Due to the fact I am trying to achieve more than a constant and actually like to control and adjust the temp of my beer based on the stage of fermentation and the flexibility that this offers for lagering, cold crashing etc means brewpi,s algorithms and PID control suits me. If I was trying to simplify this I would instead control ambient temp with a 3 to 5 deg differential.

Im only too happy to help people that want to achieve greater control/flexibility of their temp control as it is something I aimed for and am finally satisfied with what I have now achieved, likewise I am equally satisfied if the discussion that provokes makes you want to stab yourself in the eye with the closest sharp object.
 
As I said, I'm not talking about a 3-5 deg difference, but the difference between a 0.1 vs 0.3deg lag/overshoot whatever. Just like the efficiency wars where people are stressing over a couple of percent efficiency (who cares it not a commercial brewery) people are now going to be stressing that their STC-1000 has a slightly larger temp lag than a PID controller for their set point on their fermentation fridge. I would just point out that at some point an increase in precision is not going to make much of a difference to the finished product, especially if we are talking in the range of less than 0.5deg C.

I just find it interesting what part of the process people obsess over. I would be more inclined to make sure my pitching rate and wort oxygen levels were where they needed to be rather than will a PID controller make my ferment temp 0.2deg C more accurate than an STC-1000.
 
I have found the temp of the wort when pitching the yeast the important factor in controlling fermentation temperature. I use foam boxes as a set up for fermentation chambers and can control the temps within a range of 2 degrees using either a frozen water container (summer) or woollen jumper (winter) without much fuss or work effort. The results continually for me are brews that are thoroughly drinkable and enjoyable. All I'm saying is that (imo) you don't necessarily need the extra fermentation fridges/controllers and strict temp variation to achieve a great outcome.
Cheers
 
I definitely obsessed over this part because other than the fact that i like the flexibility I now have with the brewpi I enjoyed making the ferm chamber equally to how much I enjoy brewing. The whole time I was doing it I knew that I was building something more accurate and complicated then what was acceptable to create good beer. Equally I use the grainfather for brewing with a simple controller very similar to an stc 1000. Its more than adequate to make good beer but I often consider building an ardbir/mathos type controller with PID and automated profiles and it is mostly due to the DIY factor and the respect of the engineering someone has put into it.

Different strokes for different blokes I guess, If I didnt have the interest and desire to go down this path I would probably have stopped at kit and kilo and still be buying cartons of Hahn Super Dry from the local bottlo. Funny how your wants, need and taste change along this journey. Currently I am not interested in going too deep into yeast chemistry I simply oxygenate and over pitch with dry yeasts. Who knows though maybe in a years time Ill have my own yeast bank, stir plate and microscope.

It is after all a hobby not a business or chore, ok maybe its a bit of an obsession
 
Don't get me wrong, brewing is an obsession for me too. I used to obsess over the minutiae of the engineering of my system trying to improve every little thing, till it became so complex to use that it became a chore rather than fun. I used to think I wasn't a brewer but a brew rig builder, as that was all I was doing. I have since sold the big system and bought a grainfather which is great and I plan to never build a brew system again! It's funny though your comment about over pitching with dry yeast. A PID controlled fermentation fridge will improve your beer by let's say 3% over an STC. Moving to liquid yeasts and starters will improve your beer infinitely. Again from my point of view i find it interesting that people love their hardcore engineering projects (which is great by the way) but things like yeast management or water chemistry is not as 'sexy' but has far more of an impact. Anyway as you were that all I'll say in the matter. Enjoy!
 
I have to say I agree with GalBrew on this one. Yeast health/numbers and water chemistry, and a host of other things really, have far more impact over the final beer than fractions of a degree in temperature fluctuation during fermentation ever will. Personally I'd rather ensure those things are done properly than faff about with a system to get the temperature 0.2C more accurate. At the end of the day, that minute difference will have absolutely no effect on how the finished beer is perceived in the glass, which is the most important part of what we're all doing, really. But, whatever floats your boat I guess. B)
 
In my shed in winter the ambient temp gets down to 5 -8 C overnight.

During the day the fridge can easily cope with 25 -30 C ambient (Steel shed) giving me 18 C fermentation temp. The yeast metabolising wort to alcohol will also give 3 to 5 degrees above ambient if unchecked... again the fridge copes well.

However..... as the ambient temp drops it will take a long time to shift the temp of 60lt of wort at 18C due to the mass.. i.e in excess of 60Kg.. My STC1000 is connected to an ordinary 60W incandescent bulb inside a tin can.

This keeps the 100L (max) of....AIR .....inside the fridge easily at 18C.. Soooo.. 18C Wort + 18C Air = Fermentation goodness!!!! overnight.

Cheers G.
 
So if you've got the air temp sitting at 18C the whole time then the temperature of the fermenting beer could be anywhere between 3 to 5 degrees above it? Seems a bit pointless to me unless I'm missing something..
 
To me you are missing quite a bit and I am suprised how accurate you and gal believe an stc 1000 with temp probe measuring the beer actually is as it has very little to do with the accuracy of the controller and alot more to do with the fact you are attempting to control the fridge based on the slower moving medium. are you using a differential of .5deg and cycling the fridge in when it reaches .5c above set point and cycling off at set point?

As far as the yeast/water chemistry I am actually quite interested in this I just have not moved to fully refining this part of my process. So by saying I would see such remarkable difference in my beer are you sugesting for APA's which I tend to favour, I would see a massive difference from changing from Safale us-05 (which im currently quite happy with) and substituting it with wyeast 1056?
 
If your temp control is keeping the ambient temp at 18c constant without any change your fermenting beer will also be kept/reach a constant equilibrium with the air temp. This is perfect world though and realistically due to efficency of the refrigeration and damage that constant short cycling would cause to the compressor you would actually set a differential of maybe 3-4 degrees and due to the heat loss properties of the beer it would still remain constant (say within .5c)
 
Well from samples taken from the fermenter, they're actually pretty damn close to what the STC reads. I see little point in trying to guess what the ambient needs to be at, due to the stages of fermentation creating no heat during lag phase, then ramping up in the most active phase before dying down again at the end. The ambient air temperature would need to change depending on the stage of fermentation to keep the beer temperature the same; sure, the beer temp will reach equilibrium with the air temp when nothing is happening in it, but it will rise above that 18C during active fermentation, and it will stay up there until the fermentation dies down. What's the point in that? You end up fermenting 2 or 3 or 4 degrees above what you want to ferment at.

It makes a lot more sense to me to measure the temp of the fermenting beer since that's what is being controlled, whether via a fridge or whatever other methods are available.

I use a differential of 0.3C with the probe taped to the FV under heavy foam insulation. The fridge cycles on and off during active fermentation no more than the compressor itself would if it was being used as a normal fridge, and even less often once it dies down. Which suggests to me that it is reasonably accurate as the time taken for the beer to heat up again increases as the fermentation dies down, because it isn't producing as much heat.

It works for me, and has done very well for the last 3 and a half years, so I have no plans to change from measuring what I'm trying to control, to something that basically amounts to nothing more than guesswork.
 
This is a profile I just tested to make sure my new brewpi was logging correctly, beer temp is measured from thermowell and the ambient temp i measured at the evaporator coil. The profile I used was to keep the beer at 18c for a day ramp it down over 2 to 4c then maintain that temp. the fermenter is actually practically empty so it is reacting slightly differently to what would occur if it was full of actively fermenting beer however other than the fact I would use a different profile the result would be very similar if not even more accurate.

It might be considered guesswork to you, over the top or boring to others but for me it does exactly what I want and it sounds like you have a system that does exactly what you want. So what else could we ask for?

I was actually being genuine when I asked if you really believe I would be that much happy with a similar/identical strain of liquid yeast over dry for the style Im aiming for?

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