Usa's New Fascination With No Chill

[Cortez The Killer]

Just finished reading the HomeBrewTalk thread

It was epic

Good work FGZ in directing the topic and clearing up trouble spots

I see the wiki I wrote makes a guest appearance too!

I don't really have anything to add to the no-chill discussion that hasn't been said before

I do look forward to more extensive hop bitterness/flavour/aroma usage in the cube experiments

Cheers

 

[MVZOOM]

Just finished reading the HomeBrewTalk thread

It was epic

Good work FGZ in directing the topic and clearing up trouble spots

I see the wiki I wrote makes a guest appearance too!

I don't really have anything to add to the no-chill discussion that hasn't been said before

I do look forward to more extensive hop bitterness/flavour/aroma usage in the cube experiments

Cheers

Link?

 

[Benbrewer]

I'm not home right now, so I can't check my cubes, but according to that article, the cubes are made of polyethylene, which (for those that can read these) looks like this

whereas PET bottles (Polyethylene terephthalate) is a different substance, which looks like this

Entirely different beasts if I understand correctly - and likely PET could be more resistant to O₂ and CO₂ permeation.

As with most of these discussions, a complete lack of evidence that you can get botulism from no-chilling seems to suggest that it's not really a problem. I would also agree that those calculations mentioned probably don't account for the pressure of the fluid inside the cube. Besides, if the wort was fully oxygen saturated after a few days, shouldn't yeast in the fermenter revert to the aerobic reproductive phase? I shall gladly continue to no-chill.

I would think that oxygen transport through the polyethylene would be:
1. faster if the density inside the container is lower than the external pressure;
2. equal if internal and external pressures are constant, and
3. slower if the internal pressure is higher

If the container contains a liquid,then the transfer of 02 would be slow as the internal environment would be liquid with some gases diffused, rather than a gas, such as the air outside the container.

Movement of gas across any membrane can be subject to pressure, and the container is not designed as a membrane, it is designed as a barrier.

Therefore, unless the wort is an 02 attractant, I don't see the brew becoming saturated with 02 too quickly. Other wise polyethylene container would accept contamination and be unsuitable as a container.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Just finished reading the HomeBrewTalk thread

It was epic

Good work FGZ in directing the topic and clearing up trouble spots

I see the wiki I wrote makes a guest appearance too!

I don't really have anything to add to the no-chill discussion that hasn't been said before

I do look forward to more extensive hop bitterness/flavour/aroma usage in the cube experiments

Cheers

You know what its like when you try to help a situation but the more you get involved, the deeper the hole you dig for yourself :lol: That's why I retreated when I did. I thought your wiki would answer some questions - then along came the botulism sidetrack !

Hop bitterness in cube - we vary slightly in our calculations, but both know, it doesn't matter ! All the ibu calculations are guesses anyway ! But I'm waiting for the Americans to raise something new there !

Gotta love them Americans. They gave us McDonalds, KFC, Amarillo hops and the Global Financial Crisis. 3 out of 4's not bad.

Shut up! Shut up you American. You always talk, you Americans, you talk and you talk and say 'Let me tell you something' and 'I just wanna say this', Well you're dead now, so shut up.

. Good one Butters.

I like the part in Meaning of Life about the accountants taking over the world .. and "sold you off for medical experiments!"
Being a Catholic accountant has its benefits !

 

[Cortez The Killer]

Link?

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/new-byo-au...article-104892/

 

[Bribie G]

I can't agree more.

I'd love to get a plate chiller, but I simply can't justify the use of water to cool my beer when we are on stage 4 water restrictions (Geelong) and the beer is perfectly fine being no chilled.

More people should consider this when using chillers IMO.

James

Last time I was in Geelong at Waurn Ponds it was the middle of January and you could crash chill any brew just by sticking it out of the window My GF said

"God, these poor people, I hope it gets warmer than this for them in the Summer"

"This is the summer"

"Oh my God, that's right, must be the jet lag "

Edit: It was nice and cosy in the Bended Elbow :beerbang:

 

[Hutch]

I'm not sure why the cube use directions suggest minimizing air space, unless it is the originators of the idea didn't know about polyethylene's ability to transmit oxygen. Anyone know why? Fatgodzilla?

The simple answer to this is that we're trying to avoid over-exposure to oxygen while the wort is hot in the cube, as well as maximising the effect of the hot wort in pasturising the cube walls (though I would have thought the hot steam would do this anyway).

Purging the headspace, as I understand, is intended to minimise the risk of Hot-Side Aeration, even though the jury is still out on the extent to which HSA affects long-term stability. I'm not sure whether there would be an appreciable reduction in HSA purging this tiny amount of air from the headspace, given the cubed wort is not intentionally splashed around while cooling.
Having said that, I purge, as it's minimal effort to insure against the potential for HSA.

 

[mika]

Just re: the HSA. Interesting show about it covered by Jon Palmer on a Brew Strong episode from the Brewing Network.

 

[wakkatoo]

"Oh my God, that's right, must be the jet lag "

:icon_offtopic:
A bit over 2 years ago when we moved to QLD, the pilot advised us upon landing in Cairns to wind back our clocks "1 hour and 20 years".

Having lived in QLD for 2 years and since returned to Vic, that pilot was right.

God I miss the warmth tho! (11 degrees here atm :blink: )

 

[PostModern]

I once ran some excess hot wort into a cube (about 1/3 full) and just left it to see what would happen. I rotated it to "pasteurise" all sides and it certainly felt hot. About a month later, it wasn't swelled, so I thought I'd open it. Full of green, foul sludge. So somewhere between "no air bubble" and "more air than wort" there is a point where spoilage will happen. I prefer minimal or no air to lots of air. However, my first no-chill cube was only about 3/4 full of wort and it made a decent beer. I pitched next day, tho.

 

[drsmurto]

The oxygen is dissolved, so not sure whether that would make a difference to the cube shape??? Dunno enough about chemistry to properly comment.

May Dr.Smurto can help.....

i think the yanks argument is based on PE but i assume you NCers use high density polyethylene (HDPE) and that calculation of his goes out the window. Gas permeability thru HDPE is much lower.

Cheers
DrSmurto - a proud chiller (rainwater tanks recirculating so zero water usage)

 

[warra48]

The original post and qouted post by Fatgodzilla nominated a wall thickness of 1mm, (or 40mil, but presumaby he means .040"or 40 thousands of an inch).
Has anyone ever verified it's as thin as 1mm?
My guess is that it's thicker than that, and if so, the calculations will vary enormously.

 

[unterberg]

Botulism is caused by a toin from Clostridium botulinum, an obligate anaerobe (can't tolerate oxygen) that is normally found in soil. It's in the same family as clostridium perfringens (gas gangrene) and clostridium tetanai (tetanus). Which is why you get a tetanus shot after stepping on a nail in the garden.

I'm not a food microbiologist (I'm medical), but I do know that clostridium botulinum can cause the build up of toxins in foods.

I think that the increase in the 'chance' of a botulinum infection is because of the prolonged time the beer is anaerobic after the boil. If you chill straight away then you are also probably aerating and pitching straight away, which means the clostridium can't grow. Again I'm a medical microbiologist (more of an immunologist really but that's OT).

I'm of the opinion that if the organism hasn't infected a lambic,which I know supports the growth E. coli and Klebsiella pneumoniae in the early phases of fermentation, then the chances of it infected a non-spontaneously fermented beer is not worth worrying about. A lambic sits in the coolship, without oxygen introduced overnight, exposed to who knows what (E. coli and Klebsiella are known). After seeing the condition of some lambic breweries in beer hunter, I'd be more worried about organisms in lambics than Clostridium in no chilled wort.

James

You are right.
I dont think there is any reason to be worried about Clostridium botulinum. It is a very nasty bacterium and to my knowledge the reason that people really have fear of it is due to things happening in the past. Canned food when not sterilized properly had the nasty habit of growing anaerobes really well and Clostridium botulinum is one of them. The toxin produced is to my knowledge one of the most potent toxins know to man if not the most. Nevertheless women love it (botox in their face and all that crap)! No wonder you hear stories of bad things happening - it can kind of be expected with such a potent toxin in the hands of cosmetical surgeons...

But I wouldnt think Clostridium botulinum to come up in wort. There are other baceria better suited for wort. I remember from uni that we could grow Clostridium botulinum from potatoes + dirt but really only if properly sealed from air. Oxigen is toxic for Clostridium botulinum.

 

[newguy]

I'm not a microbiologist but I remember reading a botulism pissing match on hbd.org many, many years ago. The information I gleaned from that very long protracted argument was that wort was too strong, sugar-wise, for the botulism producing bacteria to survive.

As for cubes being rather oxygen permeable.....isn't that kind of the point? You want lots of dissolved O2 prior to pitching your yeast. HSA is kind of a buggaboo - it only becomes a factor with long term storage (think BWs or RISs)......at least that's what a couple of pro brewers have told me.

 

[Screwtop]

i think the yanks argument is based on PE but i assume you NCers use high density polyethylene (HDPE) and that calculation of his goes out the window. Gas permeability thru HDPE is much lower.

Cheers
DrSmurto - a proud chiller (rainwater tanks recirculating so zero water usage)

Finally someone tweaked, there are cubes AND there are cubes, nuf said.

Screwy

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Finally someone tweaked, there are cubes AND there are cubes, nuf said.

Screwy

Just looked at all my cubes and none of them has any mention of HDPE or anything other than the manufacturers name and/or a date stamp and the Recycling code. Does this signify if they are HDPE ?

Stop playing with my head Screwy .. ................. :blink:

 

[boingk]

I'll quote myself here:

Who gives a shit?

Seriously though, who does? I'd say the evidence found through practice has far outweighed any claim that it may be hazardous or detrimental. So why the argument in the first place?

I'd say that it doesn't matter a flying line of teacups, and wager that our friend on the far side didn't quite get the picture that a whole lot of us have been (and are still) doing this with no detrimental effects on the beer. Hopping becomes a bit different, but thats pretty much it AFAIK.

So lets 'chill out' and argue this point no longer.

Cheers - boingk

 

[Fatgodzilla]

I'll quote myself here:


Seriously though, who does? I'd say the evidence found through practice has far outweighed any claim that it may be hazardous or detrimental. So why the argument in the first place?

I'd say that it doesn't matter a flying line of teacups, and wager that our friend on the far side didn't quite get the picture that a whole lot of us have been (and are still) doing this with no detrimental effects on the beer. Hopping becomes a bit different, but thats pretty much it AFAIK.

So lets 'chill out' and argue this point no longer.

Cheers - boingk

I'm game .. who or what are you whinging about here !

 

[mika]

The number in the middle of the stamp with the recycling logo defines the grade of plastic used I think. Could probably google it. It's been covered here before but as part of broader discussions, not something a search would find.

 

[Vlad the Pale Aler]

Can a moderator kill this now before it all gets very tedious again.