Usa's New Fascination With No Chill

[schooey]

Hey I'm interested, I haven't seen any of this before... It's like anything else on the www, dude, if you find it tedious, don't click the link. It's not like it's your bandwidth that's keeping it here

 

[drsmurto]

A # 2 inside the recycling triangle indicates HDPE

 

[hazard]

If you can supposedly get botulism from no-chill cube, what about from a FWK? I've used a few of the cubes from G&G and have definitely suffered from some of the symptons listed in a previous post - nausea, blurred vision, yadda yadda yadda. In fact, most Friday nights i get it.

ALso, if HDPE is better than PE, does anyone know if cubes and fermenters from Bunnings are HD or not? Or, just like TVs, is HD a marketing scam? Where can I get a true HD PE cube?

hazard

 

[drsmurto]

If you can supposedly get botulism from no-chill cube, what about from a FWK? I've used a few of the cubes from G&G and have definitely suffered from some of the symptons listed in a previous post - nausea, blurred vision, yadda yadda yadda. In fact, most Friday nights i get it.

ALso, if HDPE is better than PE, does anyone know if cubes and fermenters from Bunnings are HD or not? Or, just like TVs, is HD a marketing scam? Where can I get a true HD PE cube?

hazard

Um...

see previous post. :icon_cheers:

 

[FarsideOfCrazy]

The original post and qouted post by Fatgodzilla nominated a wall thickness of 1mm, (or 40mil, but presumaby he means .040"or 40 thousands of an inch).
Has anyone ever verified it's as thin as 1mm?
My guess is that it's thicker than that, and if so, the calculations will vary enormously.

I'm a floor sander and one of the products I use comes in 20 litre cubes. Now I get quite a few of these (but I wouldn't be using them for anything food related after what's been in them) so every so often when I get too many building up I cut them up with a circular saw and I would guess that the wall thickness is at least 2mm thick. It's definatly not as thick as 3 mm though, except on the bottom.

 

[katzke]

Well being a lurker and sometime poster from the USA I will give a bit of my thoughts.

I think it comes down to either you are better brewers or you have been raised on crap beer and dont know any better. I think you are better brewers.

I say that because anyone that brews out of cans over here is thought of as some cave man that would drink sewer water and think it was some kind of fancy ass bottled water. Then the people that brew with bulk liquid extract or dry malt extract are tolerated as beginners that do not know any better. They are converted to extract with added grains as a step to real brewing. So everyone knows you are not a real home brewer unless you brew all grain with all the fancy equipment piled in the extra room or garage. Funny part of that is I never heard of having a brew room or shed until I visited this site.

So once you understand that the mind of American home brewers, the ones that are active on the forums, have been brain washed into thinking that unless you brew all grain with the pile of equipment and the endless selection of hops and yeast you are not doing it the right way. Then you can understand why any question, or suggestion, of doing it different is religiously rejected.

I have given up on trying to convert them. I just look at what they are brewing and get recipe ideas and leave the rest.

The odd thing about all the equipment is if a competition was held you would win as I have read about some much more complicated brew systems on this forum then on any of the American sites. A fancy system here is 3 kegs with the top cut out and all connected by a confusing tangle of pipes and valves. It includes 2 gas burners and maybe one pump all setting on a heavy metal stand. Those same Aussie brewers with all the equipment will still help the K&K brewer and not think bad of them.

I have not even touched on what they read. Once an idea is put in a book it is gospel. If it is written in a magazine it is debated until some dope, that does not even know what they are writing, puts it in a book. Things like dont squeeze the bag, HSA, heat extracts tannins so dont boil the grains (they must have never heard of decoction), and my favorite if you can drink the water you can brew beer.

So if you ever get into a discussion with an American home brewer remember it is like talking religion or politics. You will not convert them even if they say your BIAB no-chill beer is the best they have ever had.

 

[SDJ]

I usually squirt Co2 from my tank into the cube for 10 seconds or so before filling, hot wort does'nt need oxygen so dont give it any.

Been no chillin for over a year now, great brews, no sickness, not even a hangover.

just my 20c worth.

 

[Jakechan]

Well being a lurker and sometime poster from the USA I will give a bit of my thoughts.

I think it comes down to either you are better brewers or you have been raised on crap beer and dont know any better. I think you are better brewers.

I say that because anyone that brews out of cans over here is thought of as some cave man that would drink sewer water and think it was some kind of fancy ass bottled water. Then the people that brew with bulk liquid extract or dry malt extract are tolerated as beginners that do not know any better. They are converted to extract with added grains as a step to real brewing. So everyone knows you are not a real home brewer unless you brew all grain with all the fancy equipment piled in the extra room or garage. Funny part of that is I never heard of having a brew room or shed until I visited this site.

So once you understand that the mind of American home brewers, the ones that are active on the forums, have been brain washed into thinking that unless you brew all grain with the pile of equipment and the endless selection of hops and yeast you are not doing it the right way. Then you can understand why any question, or suggestion, of doing it different is religiously rejected.

I have given up on trying to convert them. I just look at what they are brewing and get recipe ideas and leave the rest.

The odd thing about all the equipment is if a competition was held you would win as I have read about some much more complicated brew systems on this forum then on any of the American sites. A fancy system here is 3 kegs with the top cut out and all connected by a confusing tangle of pipes and valves. It includes 2 gas burners and maybe one pump all setting on a heavy metal stand. Those same Aussie brewers with all the equipment will still help the K&K brewer and not think bad of them.

I have not even touched on what they read. Once an idea is put in a book it is gospel. If it is written in a magazine it is debated until some dope, that does not even know what they are writing, puts it in a book. Things like dont squeeze the bag, HSA, heat extracts tannins so dont boil the grains (they must have never heard of decoction), and my favorite if you can drink the water you can brew beer.

So if you ever get into a discussion with an American home brewer remember it is like talking religion or politics. You will not convert them even if they say your BIAB no-chill beer is the best they have ever had.

Thanks for the insight Katzke

Cheers,
Jake

 

[braufrau]

botulism hates hops.

"The present invention relates to the discovery that hop extract is useful as an antibacterial agent against the dangerous pathogens Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and Helicobacter pylori at levels below that at which a flavor from the acids contained therein is objectionable. More specifically, a process and associated product is described herein, comprising applying a solution of hop extract to a food, beverage or other medium so that the final concentration of hop ingredients is about 1 ppm or higher in order to inhibit the growth of Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile, and/or Helicobacter pylori.
"

http://www.wikipatents.com/6623775.html
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6251461/claims.html

 

[Adamt]

Just to clarify... 1ppm alpha acid is of the order of 1IBU.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

A # 2 inside the recycling triangle indicates HDPE

Hey guys, I wouldn't have known this unless this was answered.

got to do something to kill off this thread.
All these new fellas must not of seen the epic "no chill method" thread and "Users of the no chill method".

Actually you can tell that we haven't. Nor have all the americans who have recently logged on to AHB to see the talk of no chill in cubes and BIAB following the recent write up of both in BYO magazine.

I'm actually unimpressed with some of you blokes who think themselves moral crusaders to express a negative about a thread which is not about botulism and no chill cubing.

Read all the thread before making silly comments - you blokes have too much good positive advice to offer to let yourself down saying stuff like that.

So if you ever get into a discussion with an American home brewer remember it is like talking religion or politics. You will not convert them even if they say your BIAB no-chill beer is the best they have ever had.

If there is only one who is converted, it'll be worth the effort !

 

[RetsamHsam]

Oxigen is toxic for Clostridium botulinum.

If this is the case, then the original argument about Oxygen Permeability of the cubes carries no weight..

I'll quote myself here:


Seriously though, who does? I'd say the evidence found through practice has far outweighed any claim that it may be hazardous or detrimental. So why the argument in the first place?

Cheers - boingk

Botulism is not a very prevalent illness, only 110 cases are reported each year in the states and of those 110 cases only 25% are food borne. So to say that 'just because it hasn't happened yet it won't happen' is misguided IMO.

In saying that, I no-chill my wort on most occassions and don't give the risks a second thought...

 

[boingk]

First off, my initial post was seriously overly negative, I actually think its a good discussion going on here. I still think its a bit pointless though. I was under the impression that botulinum toxin was something that was quite rare and was easily destroyed at temperatures exceeding 60'C, as well as being inhibited by the presence of oxygen. I wasn't sure so checked it out on Wikipedia. The article is here for anyone wanting some more info.

In any event I'd say developing botulism in a brew is a sufficiently unlikely occurance, when practises concerning brewing are sanitary, that it can be dispensed of as an issue of concern. I'm not denying that it happens, but merely saying that with proper practices (yes, including no chill) you would be hard-pushed to encounter a case of botulism in your beer over a lifetime.

Cheers all, and sorry about my angry rant further up the thread.

- boingk

 

[Ronin]

First off, my initial post was seriously overly negative, I actually think its a good discussion going on here. I still think its a bit pointless though. I was under the impression that botulinum toxin was something that was quite rare and was easily destroyed at temperatures exceeding 60'C, as well as being inhibited by the presence of oxygen. I wasn't sure so checked it out on Wikipedia. The article is here for anyone wanting some more info.

In any event I'd say developing botulism in a brew is a sufficiently unlikely occurance, when practises concerning brewing are sanitary, that it can be dispensed of as an issue of concern. I'm not denying that it happens, but merely saying that with proper practices (yes, including no chill) you would be hard-pushed to encounter a case of botulism in your beer over a lifetime.

Cheers all, and sorry about my angry rant further up the thread.

- boingk

Just being picky, this is what I do after all. The toxin isn't inhibited by oxygen, the bacteria is. It is heat labile though. And Clostridium are spore forming bacteria, which makes them a little harder to kill by heat. Generally for spores autoclaving is required. So even if you pasteurise the cube with the hot wort and a spore survives, technically it can grow.

That being said, as I said in my last post I very much doubt wort is a suitable environment for clostridium to grow, as long as you're careful and don't have big chunks of dirt in your wort. Interesting data posted by braufrau, 1IBU worth of alpha acid is enough to inhibit Clostridium and Helicobacter. I work in a lab where they research vaccines for helicobacter pylori, maybe I should suggest they start giving beer as a treatment! :lol:

 

[Bribie G]

Just checked a 20l Willow cube and there's no recycling triangle anywhere, just a date stamp for 12 07 which is when it would presumably have been made.

I have emailed Willow.

Also I see they have a 30 L fermenter style container that looks interesting, might see if Bunnings stock them and how much as one of my fermenters will need replacing soon.

 

[boingk]

Cheers ronin, yeah I got my wires crossed on the botulism oxygen thingo - thanks for that one! Missed Braufraus post, too...think I need another coffee, not feeling too crash hot today. Interesting to see that even 1IBU worth of hopping is enough. Looks like we'll continue sitting pretty then.

Meanwhile, preparations for brewing this avo with the brother must continue. This stout (although technically a robust porter) won't make itself...

Cheers - boingk

 

[Ronin]

Cheers ronin, yeah I got my wires crossed on the botulism oxygen thingo - thanks for that one! Missed Braufraus post, too...think I need another coffee, not feeling too crash hot today. Interesting to see that even 1IBU worth of hopping is enough. Looks like we'll continue sitting pretty then.

Meanwhile, preparations for brewing this avo with the brother must continue. This stout (although technically a robust porter) won't make itself...

Cheers - boingk

I didn't think alpha acids were that potent a antimicrobial. I was actually thinking that my wheat beers would be the most susceptible to infection. But even they are at least 10 IBU.

I'm surprised there isn't more research into these compounds

 

[br33zy]

Quite an interesting thread. There are some very valuable tidbits in amongst the angst:

1. The presence of oxygen in the cube actually reduces any risk of botulism. (The actual risk is irrelevant for most of us.)
2. Its not really necessary to squeeze cube to totally eliminate headspace. I find this very useful, because squeezing a cube full of hot wrt makes no-chilling more than a little dangerous in my opinion. After spilling a cube full of hot wrt over my (luckily booted) foot; I abandoned no-chill for a plate chiller. Knowing this I may just try it again.
3. We shouldn't be no-chilling into just any cube. Spend a little more and use food grade plastic.
4. Hops in the cube also reduce the risk of botulism (and other infections). Indeed I think this was why the Poms started adding hops to barrels of beer bound to India isn't it?

Cheers

Breezy

 

[Jakechan]

Meanwhile, preparations for brewing this avo with the brother must continue. This stout (although technically a robust porter) won't make itself...

:icon_offtopic:
Care to share your recipe Boingk (not here of course)? Ive just made my 2nd RB, and interested in what others are doing.
Cheers,
Jake

 

[UncleMule]

:icon_offtopic: I'm sorry if this is off topic or has been answered many times before but I can't seem to find the answer in this thread (and others). I'm a "Yank" so it may just be a problem of terminology.


When you use the word "cube" what exactly do you mean? Do you mean the expandable plastic 5 gallon water carriers used for camping? Like this one ?

expandable water jug

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Expandable-W...n/dp/B000088O9Y


I'm curious to try this but I don't know what you mean by "cube".

Thanks,
UncleMule