Throw Out Your Cubes

[hellbent]

How long does it take to get to pitching temperature?

Chilling relies on a short amount of time between finishing the boil and pitching the yeast, which means that the yeast can colonise the wort before anything else.

NC relies on the temperature of the hot wort sterilising the cube to ensure that nothing colonises it before you pitch the yeast.

The problem with your method is that a fridge might be a slow way to cool down wort, and your lag time might be long enough to allow for infection. If it's less than, say, 8 hours you might be ok, but any longer I'd be looking at working out a way to cool it down quicker.

I usually do it in the morning and add the yeast in late afternoon

 

[Kai]

44Gall drum $10
submersable pump $40
copper for immersion chiller $40ish
misc bits a pieces $20
cheap hose $10
total $120
being able to chill without wasting water - priceless

That said I do no chill also.
Both have pros and cons.

That is exactly how I once planned to set up my brewery, albeit with a counterflow chiller. Since then I've moved house four times, from one side of the country to the other, and my brewing system grows more rudimentary.

 

[doon]

I no chill but have the reoccurring problem of kittens jumping out of the cube when I go to pour into the fermenter. How do i fix this?

 

[Kai]

http://bonsaikitten.com/

 

[benno1973]

I usually do it in the morning and add the yeast in late afternoon

To be honest, assuming that morning is around 10am and late afternoon is around 5pm, then that's not so bad. If you're brewing good beer, then I can't argue with the results, so keep going at it. If you ever start questioning some of the flavours that come through, it might be time to look for a chiller or a cube.

 

[drtomc]

In the area of research that I work in this kind of thing comes up again and again. People (ok, including me) publish papers that run along these lines: I compared my favorite method against yours, and mine is better. I carefully tuned my method to show off how well it works, and I used yours in the most naive way. My method is better than yours.

This kind of analysis usually overlooks the subtle trade offs between the two methods, which are frequently fine methods when used carefully for the right purpose.

For the record, I NC at the moment, but will get a plate chiller eventually, at which time I expect to use both methods.

T.

 

[ledgenko]

I think Chillin is all where it is at ... for all you fly mothers ... get out and chill ...


But seriously ...

I use cubes and I did not vote for Aunty Julia

 

[Knighty]

Im more worried about the BPA's leaching out of the "foodsafe" cubes than the quality of the beer. BPA's are some bad jibbers...... but hey I brew with extract ATM so my kitchen sink is my chiller.

 

[Nick JD]

Im more worried about the BPA's leaching out of the "foodsafe" cubes than the quality of the beer.

I'd be more worried about the unjustified paranoia. There's no BPA in HDPE.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

In the latest BYO mag a guy asked a question about No-chill and Mr Wizard slammed the idea, I quote

"I suppose if I were brewing on a desert island and only had the No-chill method I would make do, but neither one of us is stranded on an island"

He also goes on about DMS and what it smells like and what causes it. What a load of ****! He could have talked about positives and negatives but no just brushed it off as inferior and it's kinda made me a tad angry. <_<

 

[ekul]

I was taught at school that australia is the biggest island, and 90% of it is desert. Maybe thats why its so popular here


How do chillers have brewdays? Does everyone take their fermenters as well and leave as soon as the yeast is pitched?

nochill may split the brewday into two separate brewdays, however one is 4hrs long and the other 2 or 3 are onle mminutes long.0

 

[DoctorBob]

Cairns water is 30 plus degrees at the moment, so no chill in cubes for my double batches is the way I go.

I have a plate heat exchanger, plus I have also pre chillied the cooling water with a 15m copper coil in a bucket of iced water but 2 bags of ice disappear very quickly and I still end up with 40L of wort at 35C, and use heaps of water.

My beer tastes good using cubes, and no DMS I can detect but I would rather chill if I could as I think it allows more control over hop bitterness development,....anyone got advice on how to chill effectively to 20C, with tap water over 30C

I have been thinking of throwing the cubes in the swimming pool, although that is like a warm bath at present.

DrB

 

[pk.sax]

Hey DrB

Kev (QldKev hintedon another thread, what he does is run the wort through the chiller once with normal tap water back into the kettle and then a second time when its cooled down considerably using chilled water (using a pre-chiller).
I might be imagining some of that but he put the idea in my head with that post and thats how I'd try it.

 

[DoctorBob]

Hey DrB

Kev (QldKev hintedon another thread, what he does is run the wort through the chiller once with normal tap water back into the kettle and then a second time when its cooled down considerably using chilled water (using a pre-chiller).
I might be imagining some of that but he put the idea in my head with that post and thats how I'd try it.

Thanks, makes sense, I was prechilling the incoming water to the chiller, then trying to use that to take wort from 90C to 20C, hence the ice in the bucket with the pre chill coil chilling the incoming tap water didn't last long.

I have a three tier gravity system so not sure how I would get back to my kettle without buying a pump. Might have to stick to cubes.....

 

[Thirsty Boy]

skipped to the end, sorry.

K - if all your points were in fact true, your argument is sound. Trouble is, at least 3 or 4 of them are really quite debatable. YOU think they are just plain old truth... but other, smart, capable, successful, educated and knowledgable brewers disagree. So - you might be right... but its far from beyond debate. Introduce doubt to your assumptions and unfortunately your conclusions become just as doubtful.

You might be right - but then again, there's just as much reason to think you might not be. it so happens that I think you're wrong.

I own both a plate and an immersion chiller - i rarely find cause to use either.

 

[ledgenko]

Doc Beee...


You nailed it already ... pool .. cubes ... chill ... noice .... its how u roll in the tropics .. kinda like Tang and Bacardi ... don't laugh .. it does rock your world when you give it a go ... everyone loves a bit of Bug juice every now and then ... but seriously ... the pool !!! try it .. what have u got to lose .. besides Cairns is such a lovely place to be shitters !! after spending 6 years living in Darwin .. Cairns is paradise !!! especially after living in Canberra for 3 years (DAMN !!)

Matt

 

[QldKev]

Cairns water is 30 plus degrees at the moment, so no chill in cubes for my double batches is the way I go.

I have a plate heat exchanger, plus I have also pre chillied the cooling water with a 15m copper coil in a bucket of iced water but 2 bags of ice disappear very quickly and I still end up with 40L of wort at 35C, and use heaps of water.

My beer tastes good using cubes, and no DMS I can detect but I would rather chill if I could as I think it allows more control over hop bitterness development,....anyone got advice on how to chill effectively to 20C, with tap water over 30C

I have been thinking of throwing the cubes in the swimming pool, although that is like a warm bath at present.

DrB

Chuck em in the pool, I call it slow-chill.

Here is my setup http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=802440

 

[dr K]

skipped to the end, sorry.

K - if all your points were in fact true, your argument is sound. Trouble is, at least 3 or 4 of them are really quite debatable. YOU think they are just plain old truth... but other, smart, capable, successful, educated and knowledgable brewers disagree. So - you might be right... but its far from beyond debate. Introduce doubt to your assumptions and unfortunately your conclusions become just as doubtful.

You might be right - but then again, there's just as much reason to think you might not be. it so happens that I think you're wrong.

I own both a plate and an immersion chiller - i rarely find cause to use either.

Oh dear..
I know that some are debatable, If you don't no-chill.
My ## points are taken from the usual arguments put foward FOR no-chilling.
Lets look at them shall we (its been a long time), my italics

## It causes no more reported cases of botulism that conventional chilling. ( only what II have read but it makes sense
## It allows you to brew over two days rather than one Problem with this, well I do say allows, in that it gives a choice and this seems to be a big plus for no-chill
## It saves the cost of a chiller OK this IS debatable as you have to pay for cubes anyway, but I am taking the no-chill argument herei]
## You can't tell the difference (purely subjective and should be not be here but passes due to sarcasmO)K mays its not or at best poor sarcasm, again subjective
## It saves water I guess if you hose your cubes down it does not, but then its not no-chill
## Late hopping is difficult as the alpha acids continue to isomorise in the cube oooh real conjecture here, some report that their hops do not continue to isomerise, I guess its weird science and what happens in the lab may not happen at home
## Aroma hopping presents even greater problems than late hopping. see above
## DMS forms ...yes it does, whether or not enough forms that you can pick it, now the flavor threshold or indeed the flavor masking thats debatable but it occours, just like acetaldehyde does in fermentation.
## It adds another path to infection so if you don' clean your cubes properly it does not matter becasue the hot wort will sterilize them? If that is true then yes this is a shaky argument
## It takes more work, more time, more water and more chemicals to clean a cube than an immersion chiller. Now we finally strike an object of debate, though this has to be read in conjunction with above infection path. A quick hose down at the end of the day is all an immerion chiller needs as it will be plonked into the boil at least 20 minutes before the end of the boil and will have boiling acidic wort claening it and sanitising it, sans external chemicals btw, of course you could take your cube right after you pitch into a fermentor, your cube should should be sanitary, heaven help your fermenting beer if its not, give it a quick rinse and pour your cooling wort into it, and guess what, if the container was sanitary, your rinse water not contaminated and your transfer quick then time and temperature would combine and your cooling wort would be sound, with no external chemicals and no more water usage than hosing an immersion chiller, not somethng that I would advocate btw

What makes my OP, perhaps, interesting, is that did not slay, run down, demoniise, denigrate or even laugh at no-chill, I simply pointed out that there were TCO alternatives for the price of a couple of cubes, the suggestion being that you might want to finish your brew in a day, rather than wait for no real greater cost outlay. Yet many of the replies (including a recent one claiming that that guy from BYO Mr Wizard had no idea which probably prompted this reply) were from one eyed pirates with talking parrots on their shoulders, and that, I would suggest introduces far more more learned doubt from the chatterers into my assumptions than my OP. I've gone to look for Australia.

K

 

[manticle]

To add to the no chill advantages, having left my parrot at daycare (but having already stated this)

-No chill allows the luxury of making a proper starter, using identical wort, which (according to what I've read is desirable for the yeast). IF my starter doesn't fire (and this happens to brewers about the place) I am afforded the extra time to get the right one purchased/started rather than needing to resort to pitching whatever else I have on hand.
-No chill when done properly can and will use less water. Bugger cleaning the chiller - it's the water you run through the chiller. IF you have a tank - no big deal. IF you don't (and many don't) then yes - big deal.

By the way - to clean a cube, you don't have to fill it. 2 Litres of boiling water and napisan is all that's needed for a standard cube to clean it (in my experience). Empty (yes on the garden/herbs whatever or use it to clean), a quick rinse with clean water (again, doesn't have to fill the cube and water is re-used) and a spray with starsan which removes the slime created by sodium percarb (easily in my experience). I can clean and sanitise a cube with less than 10 L of (re-usable) water. What's the minimum a chiller uses?

As for the infection thing - I know people suggest that hot wort is enough to sanitise but that doesn't mean no-chill requires you not to sanitise any other way. For the record I sanitise my cubes with starsan before filling. It's so simple, I don't know why anyone wouldn't. I also ferment straight in the cube so my infection risk is actually reduced due to no transferring. The debate about the negative effect of cold break is for another discussion.

If you can't pick the DMS then is it a concern? You say it forms but if you use malts that contain very little SMM to begin with (like most 2-row ale malts) and boil properly for 60-90 minutes, why would this even be a consideration?

Isomerisation/late hopping: Yes absolutely. I've done side by sides same wort, same yeast, same fermentation but one cube chilled and one no -chilled. My experiential results confirm what you suggest (ie there is a difference) BUT:

If you form your own recipes or use someone else's no chilled recipes etc you can work this stuff out pretty easily.I don't make adjustments because all my beers are designed by me and I no chill. It's not hard to get the hop flavour and aroma I want into a beer. I brew beer, at home, mainly for me and I no-chill. I design recipes for me, for home brewing, for my no chilling dingle dongle. Even Dr George Fix suggested it is the human palate which is the most important instrument when it comes to evaluating finished beer.

No chill is convenient for some, for various reasons. Chilling is likewise. A versus B debates are actually pretty uninteresting most of the time. Learning about as many methods/techniques there are and trying them out for yourself is what interests me about cooking, brewing, drawing, art conservation and handling (my job and training) and many other things. Why stagnate or fixate?

As for expense - a plastic jerrycan (which for me doubles as a fermenter) versus metres of copper? Really?

 

[Thefatdoghead]

claiming that that guy from BYO Mr Wizard had no idea which probably prompted this reply

Mate, I was simply quoting not claiming what was said in the magazine and my opinion is that Mr wizard from BYO has some great answers and that this answer in particular was a narrow minded one. Never did I say that Mr Wizard had no idea I just thought his response to a question regarding NC was a narrow minded incorrect answer to the readers question.
Now if you'll Excuse me i'll have to go feed my parrot.
:icon_cheers: