The Way Forward

[Uncle Fester]

Ive come in late on this, and reading all of the banter is a little confusing. Anyhow, here is my 2 cents..

I have no objection with anyone purchasing and on-selling for a profit, as long as they have no problem with me being discerning, and exercising my right to purchase from what I consider to be the best price.

Where I do get my back up, is if someone colludes with a supplier(s) to deny me access to a product, that should be freely available.

I believe that this would be tanamount to either some sort of restriction of trade or even price fixing, both actions of which the ACCC would be interested in.

lets face it, the small operator is a much easier target for the ACCC than the big, well legally funded boys.

I am no lawyer, but I would be almost certain that attempts to manipulate supply to a market like this would be questionable at the least.

If I have got this cock-eyed, and this is not what has happened, then please feel free to let me know.


All that aside, I support my HBS for the simple reasons that although he is by no means the cheapest in town, he has a great range of stock, the freshest of ingredients, is a wealth of knowledge, and at the end of the day, a good bloke you could share an ale with.


Yibba de Yibbedah

That's all folks.


M

 

[Boozy the clown]

I hear that Ross's hop venture is going great guns!

 

[bradmcm]

Ive come in late on this, and reading all of the banter is a little confusing. Anyhow, here is my 2 cents..

I have no objection with anyone purchasing and on-selling for a profit, as long as they have no problem with me being discerning, and exercising my right to purchase from what I consider to be the best price.

Where I do get my back up, is if someone colludes with a supplier(s) to deny me access to a product, that should be freely available.

I believe that this would be tanamount to either some sort of restriction of trade or even price fixing, both actions of which the ACCC would be interested in.

lets face it, the small operator is a much easier target for the ACCC than the big, well legally funded boys.

I am no lawyer, but I would be almost certain that attempts to manipulate supply to a market like this would be questionable at the least.

If I have got this cock-eyed, and this is not what has happened, then please feel free to let me know.


All that aside, I support my HBS for the simple reasons that although he is by no means the cheapest in town, he has a great range of stock, the freshest of ingredients, is a wealth of knowledge, and at the end of the day, a good bloke you could share an ale with.

[post="111975"][/post]​

It's not collusion, restriction of trade, trade manipulation or price fixing.
All this HB Store or group of HB Stores have reputedly said, "We don't like our wholesaler selling direct at wholesale prices, we will consider taking our business elsewhere.", then Hopco have made a business decision.

How is that different from you choosing where to shop?
The homebrew stores are doing just that.


There is no monopoly on hop trading, there is more than one wholesaler here and nothing to stop people dealing straight with hop suppliers overseas, exactly like Ross is doing.

I see it as purely a business decision by Hopco keep their customers happy.
You have to look at who their customers are. A large percentage would be
the microbreweries and a small percentage would be HB stores. An even smaller
percentage would be the individual/bulk buy syndicate from HB clubs or bulletin boards. Sorry, to tread on some people's egos, but you are well down on the food chain.

 

[Paul H]

I too have come in late on this thread & would like to throw in my "non-bulk buy" two cents. My concern & that of my fellow club brewers was that we wanted fresh hops that had been stored correctly & sold in a vacuum sealed packs. PRICE WAS NOT OUR MAIN ISSUE.
I am fully aware of the LHBS situation in Brisbane & their movement toward the spirit producers in terms of profitability . I do not blame their business decisions. As a group of brewers we are a minority, in terms of our geographic spread we constitute an even smaller minority.
As we have learn't it's difficult to source liquid yeasts in Brisbane & most stores do not carry them as they threw out more tha they sold,
Hops appear to be going the same way.
I support my LHBS when I can because frankly it would be difficult if they weren't there & they are nice blokes.
As a club we have invested in the equipment necessary to fulfill OUR hop range & storage requirements & will look to source our hops domestically or from overseas.
Let me say to the LHBS that complained, for our club this was a primarily a QUALITY ISSUE.
If you can't guarantee that Aust wide all brewers will have reasonable access to a wide range of fresh hops that are stored in a freezer & sold in vacuum bags, don't whinge when someone else gets off their behind & tries to help brewers out.

Cheers

Paul
(jump off soapbox)

 

[Mr Bond]

Sorry, to tread on some people's egos, but you are well down on the food chain.

[post="112001"][/post]​

You tell em Brad.

Cut the whingeing and move on.
I love the choice I've got.

I buy hops from: Brewmaker (holden hill)
:Grumpys(verdun)
:ND brewing(sydney)
:and soon from ross(nsw)

And will continue to buy what i want on a whimsy or with forward planning from wherever the price ,quality and service are best.

Brau(bottom o' the foodchain)luver

 

[Hopeye]

[/quote]
I see it as purely a business decision by Hopco keep their customers happy.
[/quote]

Mate, you've have come into this fray way too late. MHB bought all remaining stock that Hopco had and then offered that same stock at an inflated price. Is that ethical ?? I'm not the one to decide, as I believe that ethics are a personal set of rules. Personally, I would not buy all available hops from a given supplier to the detriment of all others (other LHBS included), and then offer those same hops on the same forum at an inflated cost. That would be commercial suicide.

 

[Hopeye]

Hopeye

Yes I have something to say, I put it in a thread called We are not the enemy.

You want wholesale price, here it is:-

145 Kg of mixed hops at $23.00 per kg, $3335.00
Freight from Tasmania and to your door $275.00
GST 10% $361.00
Total $3971.00

Put up or shut up.

MHB

[post="111949"][/post]​

MHB,

First off. You have no right to tell me to "put up or shut up", I did not force you to make this mistake that you have made. I did not tell you to buy up all the remaining Hopco Hops so that no-one else could (including other LHBS's). I have every right to announce to the world that I will vote with my wallet. I am not cornering a small percentage of the market for my own gain. I am not acting unethically. Can you say the same ???

Secondly, your offer of 145kgs far and exceeds my requirements for 3kgs (which I have purchased elsewhere and will continue to do so as a matter of principal now), so your offer is rejected.

Many members on this forum can vouch that I have integrity and that I am standing up for the common good. Can you say the same ???

DO NOT EVER AGAIN TELL ME TO PUT UP OR SHUT UP

Kind Regards,
David

 

[bindi]

:and soon from ross(nsw)


NSW <_< you sure it's not Qld. :super:

 

[Mr Bond]

:and soon from ross(nsw)


NSW <_< you sure it's not Qld. :super:

[post="112116"][/post]​

Whoops, sorry Ross and co... major GAFF,but you get the picture.

I've been swapping PM's with Ol mate ross in the last week and will be placing an order as soon as thingsare up and running.

 

[Gough]

Hopeye,

I can understand your frustration at not being able to get your particular bulk purchase off the ground. I have to take issue though at your suggestion that Mark is somehow 'unethical'. He is running a business. He bought from his supplier. His supplier chose to supply him, a long term customer, at what you perceive to be your expense. You are upset - understandably - but don't translate that into accusations of unethical business practice.

I am a long term customer. Mark is an ethical proprietor - to the point of personal loss in some cases - and an important supporter of home/craft brewing in our city/broader region. I can't say it clearer than that. He has had the guts to make himself a very public target here, and to openly detail his margins and methods. Do you seriously believe that one HBS from Newcastle dominates the business practiceses of Hopco and Bintani?? There is more to this than you and others are prepared to acknowledge. You are cranky because your own purchase was denied by the wholesalers and looking for someone to blame, as are others. Whatever happened, Mark should NOT be singled out, and should not be made some sort of scapegoat for a bulk purchase that fell over. This flaming is ridiculous and this whole argument is getting very boring after a fortnight's running. Mate, you've made your point. I'll make mine. If Mark is an 'unethical' HBS owner then we need an entire industry of similarly 'unethical' HBS owners.

Shawn.

 

[Screwtop]

Information from this forum was used against us I say. He can die with them. Here goes another thread airlocked because of my shit stirring. Some might not like what I have to say but a forum is for airing opinions, this happen to be mine.

 

[bradmcm]

Mate, you've have come into this fray way too late. MHB bought all remaining stock that Hopco had and then offered that same stock at an inflated price. Is that ethical ?? I'm not the one to decide, as I believe that ethics are a personal set of rules. Personally, I would not buy all available hops from a given supplier to the detriment of all others (other LHBS included), and then offer those same hops on the same forum at an inflated cost. That would be commercial suicide.

[post="112109"][/post]​

Hopco is a wholesaler. MHB is a retailer. Retailers buy in bulk from wholesalers and then sell smaller amounts for an inflated price. How many thousands of years has this been going on?

The other LHBS have had nearly 12 months to buy this stock. They haven't.
With the 2005 northern hemisphere season's hops coming in, I reckon Hopco are jumping over the moon that their excess stock has been sold.

 

[warrenlw63]

I'll totally sit on the fence here and dangle my legs.

However, Hopco and Bintani would most probably have enough human resources on their hands to write something and explain their feelings/thoughts to us minnows swimming in the small pool. In fact their thoughts would probably stop this whole shit-fight completely. C'mon guys! We're all here for the same thing. :blink:

Any idea of what they think of all of this? (if they even care). Secondly. How did their price lists even get to see the light of day? This would have to be the spanner in the works. Of course people are going to see the wholesale prices and cry poor. OTOH Hops aren't exactly rare gems either. :unsure:

Personally I think that hops are a minor price point of our whole hobby. We're not trading on commodities. It's not oil and gold etc. Each brew we make costs us no more than $10 per brew in hops at the very most. That equates to 2 bottles of premium beer. On that end we're being penny wise, pound foolish.

Thank goodness we don't have to add crude oil to our grists and deal with OPEC or the AWB.

Rant over and I'm over it all. Think I'll just stick with the LHBS and write off the extra $20 or $30 it's costing me a year. Hardly breaking the bank I'd say. :lol:

Warren -

 

[Hopsta]

It looks like one of "The ways forward" has just been blocked by Hopco check my last post here

 

[wee stu]

Hopco is a wholesaler. MHB is a retailer. Retailers buy in bulk from wholesalers and then sell smaller amounts for an inflated price. How many thousands of years has this been going on?

The other LHBS have had nearly 12 months to buy this stock. They haven't.
With the 2005 northern hemisphere season's hops coming in, I reckon Hopco are jumping over the moon that their excess stock has been sold.

[post="112186"][/post]​

Damn, what you say on thread makes a lot of sense, Mr Brew Brad. One day you and I have to meet up sober and intelligible like

Seriously, read what Brad has written, get a pint, get over it, and get back to brewing.

Nothing unusual, in the horrendously unequal and unfair world we live in, has happened here.

 

[Boozy the clown]

Sounds like a 'Hopco' boycott rather than MHB boycott would be fairer.

I've got not qualms about refusing to buy hopco hops. That would just be a drop in the ocean but if a wave develops, well that hard to miss.

 

[wee stu]

It looks like one of "The ways forward" has just been blocked by Hopco check my last post here

[post="112190"][/post]​

When the plankton attempts to rob the whale of food supply, something is going to give. Most times it won't be the whale.

I was one of the plankton hoping to get succour from this deal, that I haven't is no great surprise to me. The world is far too small a place nowadays.

 

[MHB]

I am in an invidious position.
Half of what I want to say I cant it is unethical to regurgitate private conversations in an open forum.
The other half is my business, after my 1 misguided attempt to illustrate the realities of retail, is certainly none of your business.

I risked several thousand dollars to offer the biggest range of hops that I have ever seen listed at what are very reasonable prices.

In return I have been subjected to scorn, ridicule, down right offensive and in a couple of cases libellous crap.

On the other hand there have been some insightful and constructive comments made. These I will take onboard in an attempt to improve my business and serve my customers better. The comments made by those I deal with have been gratifying in the extreme and I would like to thank them all.

This is my opinion
If you want whole sale prices, its easy, put up $50,000 open a home brew shop.

I hold and have expressed this sentiment openly both publicly and in private conversations.

However to think that I can pick up the phone and tell wholesalers what to do, displays an incredible lack of knowledge of the realities of business.

But if you think I am that influential maybe you had better start calling me Sir. Because if you dont I might pick up the phone and get your lights, electricity and water turned off, not to mention your phone, where will you be than.

MHB

 

[agro]

Hi all,

Ok - I have avoided posting for good reason.

Could we PLEASE put an end to this thread. It is neither productive or informative. To be honest these threads are taking away from AHB and doing far more damage than good. The subject has also been done to death.

My $0.02

Agro.

 

[Ross]

Hi all,

Ok - I have avoided posting for good reason.

Could we PLEASE put an end to this thread. It is neither productive or informative. To be honest these threads are taking away from AHB and doing far more damage than good. The subject has also been done to death.

My $0.02

Agro.

[post="112235"][/post]​

For one with more insight than most into this situation, I agree 100%...

Relax, have a homebrew & let's get back to discussing brewing :beer:

cheers Ross