Style Of The Week 9/5/07 -sour Ales

[kook]

Kook, I've been reading about the whole orval as a source of brett thing recently. Did you put some in secondary, if so for how long, or did you just do it at bottling time?

I just added two bottles (including dregs) worth at bottling time. I also slightly underprimed as I'm sure the brett will eat more sugars.

 

[sinkas]

Anyone used dregs from Liefmans goudenband to sour up some beer?

 

[tipsy_mcstagger]

Finally got around to brewing what will hope to be a goudenband replica next year, just pitched the brew on top of th lactobascillus.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 17.50 L
Boil Size: 44.82 L
Estimated OG: 1.070 SG
Estimated Color: 36.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 22.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 73.0 %
Boil Time: 151 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.45 kg popped corn (2.0 EBC) Adjunct 8.3 %
4.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.Grain 73.4 %
0.50 kg Caramunich II (Weyermann) (124.1 EBC) Grain 9.2 %
0.30 kg Carahell (Weyermann) (25.6 EBC) Grain 5.5 %
0.20 kg Caraaroma (Weyermann) (350.7 EBC) Grain 3.7 %
35.00 gm Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00%] (60 min) Hops 22.5 IBU
1 Pkgs Belgian Ale (Wyeast Labs #1214) [Starter 1Yeast-Ale
1 Pkgs Lactobacillus Delbrueckii (Wyeast Labs #43Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 5.45 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 11.00 L of water at 64.1 C 53.0 C 20 min
Step Add 4.50 L of water at 96.2 C 63.0 C 190 min
Step Add 8.00 L of water at 73.6 C 66.0 C 30 min
Mash out Add 7.50 L of water at 99.4 C 73.0 C 10 min


Notes:
------
02/09 - Pitched yeast @ 19deg
08/09 - Sg 1.016 Tastes slight banana esters pitched onto lactobacillus

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

What amount of Roselare yeast would I need to pitch to a 20 litre brew that has completed primary fermentation?

C&B
TDA

 

[kook]

What amount of Roselare yeast would I need to pitch to a 20 litre brew that has completed primary fermentation?

C&B
TDA

1 pack.

It's a blend, if you separate and then try to propagate up, you'll disrupt the balance of bugs.

 

[pmolou]

just made a sour ale with the lambic blend And cantillon dregs and smells disgusting sofar so quite promising haha

its only been a week since i pitched but i've left quite a bit of headspace say 10cm as i thought it could have a large krausen

anyway will this have any effect on the beer as ive heard (of burgandybabblebelt) that less O2 means a more sour beer, true???
anyway i'm going to put a lid on it so no more o2 gets in but should i maybe top it up with water or what?
or just leave it cos it smells very very funky already and its only been a week

1.5kg coopers wheat extract
50g special b
50g munich
12 litres

any advice cheers

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

1 pack.

It's a blend, if you separate and then try to propagate up, you'll disrupt the balance of bugs.

Thanks kook, much appreciated :beer: !

C&B
TDA

 

[Quintrex]

just made a sour ale with the lambic blend And cantillon dregs and smells disgusting sofar so quite promising haha

its only been a week since i pitched but i've left quite a bit of headspace say 10cm as i thought it could have a large krausen

anyway will this have any effect on the beer as ive heard (of burgandybabblebelt) that less O2 means a more sour beer, true???

Brettanomyces gives more character with less oxygen, and the converse is true as well. Oxygen does inhibit growth of a lot of the souring bugs like pedio however acetobacter will thrive in an oxygen rich environment. more O2 over time will mean a more oxidized acidic brew, so probably best to limit oxygen to limit acetic formation, the bugs should form a pellicle after a bit which will help give them the amount needed but will protect your brew from being exposed to too much oxygen.

Check out the following powerpoint made by Vinnie Cilurzo, it's really good.
http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/brew_re...resentation.ppt

Q

 

[pmolou]

Brettanomyces gives more character with less oxygen, and the converse is true as well. Oxygen does inhibit growth of a lot of the souring bugs like pedio however acetobacter will thrive in an oxygen rich environment. more O2 over time will mean a more oxidized acidic brew, so probably best to limit oxygen to limit acetic formation, the bugs should form a pellicle after a bit which will help give them the amount needed but will protect your brew from being exposed to too much oxygen.

Check out the following powerpoint made by Vinnie Cilurzo, it's really good.
http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/brew_re...resentation.ppt

Q

wow great info

 

[kabooby]

Nice info Q. I was actually listening to the presentation Vinnie did on sour beers on the BN not long ago. Trying to build up my knowledge for some sour beers. My main problem now is long term storage during the fermentation, especially when we have 42C days like today <_<

Kabooby

 

[goatherder]

Nice info Q. I was actually listening to the presentation Vinnie did on sour beers on the BN not long ago. Trying to build up my knowledge for some sour beers. My main problem now is long term storage during the fermentation, especially when we have 42C days like today <_<

Kabooby

Mine too - my FRA is in the garage where the temp is now reading 37C.

My last FRA suffered similar conditions and turned out OK. Maybe constant temps would have made it better, who knows.

 

[Quintrex]

Mine too - my FRA is in the garage where the temp is now reading 37C.

My last FRA suffered similar conditions and turned out OK. Maybe constant temps would have made it better, who knows.

Heh, I'm worried about my funky beers too, a little heat is ok up to about ~30ish (from what I have read), but it can make them go "sick" for a period, I'm hoping to get a trapdoor put into my double brick house so that they can age with a relatively constant temp.

I'd love to have a aussie wide funky/sour beer swap one day! Seems like more and more AHB members are venturing on the wild side of brewing.

Cheers
Q

 

[pmolou]

mines getting quite hot aswell though got no temp measurer for it so no idea how hot it is but i just plan on brewing one during winter then combining them or something similar to balance out the flavours..
expecting my summer one to be quite acidic considering it has a fair bit of headspace and hot temperatures <_<

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

Well I really have no idea why but on Saturday I transferred 10 litres of a smoked porter (gravity at 1017) from primary
and pitched some Roselare yeast into it :blink: !

I have it in plastic and from what I read from peoples experience's it should be okay regarding excessive oxygen. I will leave it at ambient temperatures which will mean some severe fluctuations but this doesn't worry me as it is just an experiment.

Is there anything else I need to consider here?

C&B
TDA

 

[Quintrex]

Well I really have no idea why but on Saturday I transferred 10 litres of a smoked porter (gravity at 1017) from primary
and pitched some Roselare yeast into it :blink: !

I have it in plastic and from what I read from peoples experience's it should be okay regarding excessive oxygen. I will leave it at ambient temperatures which will mean some severe fluctuations but this doesn't worry me as it is just an experiment.

Is there anything else I need to consider here?

C&B
TDA

The first time you use a smack pack, the sourness takes quite a while to develop, however the sourness will increase with each repitch of the slurry, something to keep in mind. From memory I think rodenbach washes the slurry with pH2 acid solution to keep the bacteria in check.

Q

 

[reviled]

The first time you use a smack pack, the sourness takes quite a while to develop, however the sourness will increase with each repitch of the slurry, something to keep in mind. From memory I think rodenbach washes the slurry with pH2 acid solution to keep the bacteria in check.

Q

What do Rodenbach bottle their Grand Cru with? I have a bottle sitting in the fridge and am looking at turning an infected beer lambic...

 

[pmolou]

how do people store there sour ales as mines in a plastic container with no air lock just a lid i screw on the undo to let gas out of every few weeks but lately i noticed it had so much gas it almost exploded and is deforemed...
so back to the question how do people usually store there sour ales?

 

[goatherder]

how do people store there sour ales as mines in a plastic container with no air lock just a lid i screw on the undo to let gas out of every few weeks but lately i noticed it had so much gas it almost exploded and is deforemed...
so back to the question how do people usually store there sour ales?

Same here. The cubes can take a bit of pressure. I'm dreading the day the tap blows out though. After a few months the C02 production slows considerably, it becomes less of a problem.

 

[neonmeate]

What do Rodenbach bottle their Grand Cru with? I have a bottle sitting in the fridge and am looking at turning an infected beer lambic...

rodenbach gc is pasteurised and cleaned up, you won't get anything out of it. however wyeast roeselare blend is supposed to be pretty close. dregs from orval, cantillon, hanssens etc will give you bugs though. but not the sweetened up lambics like timmermanns, bellevue etc!

three weeks ago i chucked some dregs from two bottles of lindemans cuvee rene into a strong saison that had already got down to 1001 - got a nice pellicle forming now.

dunno if your infected beer will ever turn out with a good lambic balance - the bacteria that first infected it will probably still be dominant - you might need to wait a very long time to find out.

 

[Jye]

Picked myself up a bottle of lindemans and cantillon gueuze today and Im thinking I should make the most of them and use the dregs in something. How does this sound;

35% malted wheat
65% pils malt
10 IBUs of clean bittering

Primary ferment with a clean yeast (1056 or a lager strain), then split into 2 keg and secondary with the dregs of each until ready? I currently have a saison on tap that was conditioned with the dregs from orval and am really surprised at how much character the brett dregs produced. Im hoping for similar but different (yummier) results from the lindemans and cantillon.