Style Of The Week 9/5/07 -sour Ales

[Stuster]

This week I thought we'd look at an unusual style of beers, Sour Ales. This is a whole category of different styles really, but I don't think there are so many sour beers being made that this needs to be split into five different weeks.

Also, some of the same issues (mainly about fermentation) are the same across the styles. So who's made a Berliner Weisse , a Flanders Red or Brown ale, a lambic or even a gueuze. :unsure: BJCP category 17.

Links

Brewboard group sour ale brew
Jamil show on Flanders Red
Raj Apte's pages on sour beers
Ratebeer article on lambics and gueze
Babblebelt - a good site for info on brewing Belgians and bug beers

So, what can you tell us about brewing these styles? Grains? Hops? Yeasts? Any tips for the sometimes lengthy fermentation that will be involved with these beers? Any commercial examples that are worth trying?

Tell us all you know so we can make better beer. :chug:

 

[Trent]

Havent brewed any (YET), but I can say that if you are up for a good commercial example, then Rodenbach Grand Cru is one of the best. Extremely complex, with too many flavours and aromas to even begin naming. Tried this beer at the BJCP course, and fell in love with Sour Beers straight away. I dont think Orval is sour, but well worth the try. I believe that it takes a year or so to brew out properly, but I guess they are worth the wait.
Just lost me job today (finally), so tomorrow I begin the hunt for plastic bottles from the local spring water company, so I can start doing em. Looking forward to tips from those experienced in brewing this type of beer.
All the best, and top work Stuster for making sour beers the style of the week!
Trent

 

[DarkFaerytale]

trent, are you talking about those large 20 odd ltr plastic spring water bottles? are they suitable for brewing in as a one off?

good luck on the job hunt too btw

-Phill

 

[kook]

I've got one fermenting at the moment, and the only real advice I have to offer is to use a neutral strain in primary. I pitched roselare directly, and it took a very long time to initially ferment out, with some stalling along the way. Next time I will ferment out with 1056 and add roselare in secondary.

Oh, and be patient

Recipe is here.

 

[brendanos]

This thread is awesome.

 

[Stuster]

kook, did you end up going with a plastic cube? I've got some to hand and was thinking of using them for this when I (finally) get round to doing a sour beer.

 

[kook]

I'm just using a plain old plastic fermenter, however I will rack to two polycarbonate spring water bottles when I move house in the next few weeks.

 

[neonmeate]

my binliner weisse is getting good now after two months in the bottle, very sour. neutral yeasts - bah. leave them for the germans. i used all brett anomalus for the main part of the ferment and yoghurt for the lactic ferment. was interesting - got a bit acetic (brett exposed to o2 does that) but that has faded. very fruity, sour and zingy - just a bit of homeless man pong when you open the bottle which is a worry. i hope that goes away with age.

got a hoppy belgian blonde with orval dregs in secondary now , basically a 50 IBU pilsener wort fermented with duvel yeast and the orval dregs. looking promising. dunno how long the brett will take.

got some sour porter and imperial stout too. what they lack in drinkability they sure make up for in sensory assault.. as stuster will attest...

gotter make a flemish red one of these days.

don't even ask about my lambic from 2004.

 

[kook]

don't even ask about my lambic from 2004.

You should have blended the maggots! h34r:

 

[Stuster]

I hoped to see you in this thread.

got some sour porter and imperial stout too. what they lack in drinkability they sure make up for in sensory assault.. as stuster will attest...

Very true. I was unable to finish off the porter. The aroma is actually quite attractive but remarkably intense. However, undeterred, I inoculated 10L of porter with the dregs. :blink:

just a bit of homeless man pong when you open the bottle which is a worry. i hope that goes away with age.

Sounds delightful.

 

[warrenlw63]

got a hoppy belgian blonde with orval dregs in secondary now , basically a 50 IBU pilsener wort fermented with duvel yeast and the orval dregs. looking promising. dunno how long the brett will take.

NM

I added the two bottles of Orval dregs to my Saison around November last year. It was bottled around 8-10 weeks ago. To tell you the truth the brett doesn't really predominate. Subtle (started a bit leathery but has subsided a bit) but not in your face. It's most certainly still eating away at the sugars because the beer has become quite carbed. Has a pillowy head that takes ages to even think about settling down.

I'm going to set a few champagne bottles of it aside and see what a year or so does for it. Drinking well now.

BTW Stuster great thread!! Might get me off my arse and doing something with that smack pack of Roselare I've got sitting with the vegies in the fridge.

Warren -

Edit: speeeeling

 

[tipsy_mcstagger]

Love The Leifmans Goudenband so planning on doing a Flanders Brown soon;

70% Pilsner
10% Caramunich
10% Caravienna
10% Maize

Will probably use popped corn for the maize, primary ferment with Munich Lager, mainly because that is the yeast cake I will have available, the rack to secondary on top of 5335 Lactobacillus delbrueckii in a 20L carboy and leave for a couple of years.

Then give blending a go, doing the same recipe, swapping 5L old for new drink the blended beer and leave the carboy for another year.

Tipsy

 

[neonmeate]

that's interesting warren, i think it can be a bit of a lottery with the brett - other beers i've done with orval dregs have been really OTT but this one hasnt developed any funkiness yet (well it hadnt two weeks ago) despite the pellicle.
wonder what's happening inside my longneck of coopers sparkling.

tipsy that looks really good. do you really need to leave it for 2 years!!?

 

[goatherder]

Nice timing Stuster. I just picked up a pack of Wyeast Roeselare this afternoon. I have grand visions of a flanders red.

I'm planning to do as kook advised and ferment out with a neutral ale yeast before racking and inoculating with the bug blend. I'll leave it in plastic for 6 months, probably just in the shed over winter. I hope the bugs aren't too temperature sensitive.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get that deep red colour that Rodenbach has? I'm thinking some melanoidin and caraaroma, but I'm unsure of the percentages. Any clues?

 

[neonmeate]

Any clues?

Rajotte says to simmer the whole thing overnight to get the red colour. but most of that book is totally incomprehensible and outdated. would imagine there are easier and more climatechange neutral ways to do it.

 

[bconnery]

I am really fond of lambics, flanders etc. so I made a sour red ale, but was a little scared of using brett cultures or anything like that until I had a better understanding of ensuring they didn't get into everything so I used a variety of sour orange instead.

I don't know exactly what it was because it just grew amongst the other citrus my folks have but it was very strong and tart.

The recipe was kind of based on readings from the classic beer series Belgian ales book.

3kg LME. 30g Chocolate Malt. 70g Crystal. 100g Carapils. 100g Dark Brown Sugar. 50g Styrian Goldings. Zest of 5 sour oranges, juice of 7. T58 yeast

Steeped chocolate, crystal and carapils. Slightly caramelized sugar with zest of 2 oranges and juice of 1 and added to runnings off steeped grain. Boiled all wort for 6 hours. 30g Goldings @45. juice & rind for 15. 20g Goldings @0

Fermented at around 22-24C.



Early on it was a really sharp tart upfront taste with the slighly caramelized sweetness coming through after that. As time has gone on the reverse is true, the tartness has faded.

I preferred the beer young, others like it more now.

I would do this beer every year, with slight variations, especially with a belgian liquid of some sort, if my folks hadn't pruned the tree back. As it is I'll have to wait...



A few tasted it at the QLD Xmas case swap. Most liked it, many shook their heads at the prospect of a 6 hour boil, but it's not that hard when using only extract as the volumes are smaller...

 

[kook]

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get that deep red colour that Rodenbach has? I'm thinking some melanoidin and caraaroma, but I'm unsure of the percentages. Any clues?

Our red looked incredible in the kettle, really ruby in colour. After the boil it seemed to have lost some of that, and now that it is fermented out its even less red. Still has quite a ruby look about it, but is more an orange-brown than red. I'm still searching for the solution to getting that real red look.

 

[tipsy_mcstagger]

tipsy that looks really good. do you really need to leave it for 2 years!!?

Just finished reading Wild brews and He recommends at least 18months, Nothing wasted in doing a blend at 12months, probably wouldnt be able to last the 2 years anyway.

I found it interesting that the flanders red is aged in wood compared to the brown that is aged in Stainless.

 

[randyrob]

Hmm... impeckable timing, i was just down at supercheap purchasing a jerry can to do my first lambic in
since i didnt want to tie up one of my existing fermenters thought i'd jump on ahb and start reading up on em and it happens to be the Style of the week :blink: i'll be watching this thread eagerly after trying my first lambic on the weekend just gone @ kooks brewday never though i would actually like them but now i'm sold on the idea :beerbang:

 

[neonmeate]

I found it interesting that the flanders red is aged in wood compared to the brown that is aged in Stainless.

i think that's only since liefmans got taken over by riva and they moved production out of the old brewery in oudenaarde. i could google up the facts to be sure but i'm too lazy so i will just say "i think" that's right.