Polyclar As A Kettle Addition

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Looking through the ISPcorp website at the various documents about the Polyclar products, I see that Polyclar Brewbrite is a blend of PVPP and carrageenan, designed as a kettle addition when we (well, I) would normally just add Koppafloc.

I thought I might give this a shot next brew. Anyone tried it?

You have to login to get to the product documentation, but here's where the document is linked from...

http://online1.ispcorp.com/en-US/Pages/bvg...amp;prdId=72452

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Just to make life a little easier for people - I have ruthlessly saved one of the papers from the website. Results of a trial of the polyclar brewbrite.

View attachment 24874

Even if your experiment with adding "normal" polyclar doesn't work - I think this product would be a fantastic one for HB shops to stock.

You dump in a spoonful of this stuff instead of a whirlfloc tab - and you get clearer wort, more wort, better fermentation and higher yeast cell counts, slightly greater attenuation and no chill haze

That's a product I would buy

I too shall give the bathtub method a go and tip in a bit of polyclar to my next boil along with the carageenan ... I'm sure the dose rates would need to be higher because the polyclar is not "micronised" and the carageenean is in a coarser state. But what the hell, homebrew dose rates for things like copper finings and polyclar etc are craploads higher than commercial rates (or at least my mega brewery rates) anyway.

How much can it really hurt and it might work.

Thirsty

edit: forgot attachment

second edit: to post this link which is for those who really want to geek out on the chemistry - the second article is about using PVPP in the kettle to increase levels of foam forming polypeptides int eh final beer - it mentions using both Polyclar brewbrite AND just normal PVPP - and both of them reduce polyphenol levels in the beer by roughly the same amount. So bog standard polyclar should do its job in the kettle, do a bunch of ohter good things, and might help head formation as well. winner.

http://web.sls.hw.ac.uk/icbd/Newsletter/Ne...Autumn_2003.htm

 

[hoohaaman]

So has anyone waded thru un numbered pages?

 

[hoohaaman]

I recokn thirstys coverd it.

 

[hoohaaman]

I luve ab.dude get the houise up

 

[Ross]

We looked through all the ISP products before going with Polyclar VT.

Brewbrite actually looked the best all round single addition product, but from memory it only had a 6 month shelf life, making it impracticle to stock on a homebrew scale. I looked through the documentation, but appears they've removed the shelf life from the documentation.
A combination of a good kettle fining & Polyclar with give you very similar results, if not better.


Cheers Ross

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Yes, Ross - rereading my original post, I clearly wasn't expressing myself very well. I only intend throwing some PVPP with my koppafloc into the boil, once MrsMostOfIt stops finding things for me to do instead of brewing.

You don't seriously think I would spend money on a new idea, do you?

 

[Smashin]

I've been using Brewbrite for around a year now and can vouch for its performance. I've had the same batch since ISP sent me the samples and I seams to still be performing as it did the day I received it.

As for polyclar VT it is not intended for beer it is for preventing pinking and browning in wine and the particle size has been optimised for just that, the addition rate if you wish to use vt as a filter aid for beer needs to be in the order of 5-10 times what is claimed. Don't take my word for it ask ISP for yourselfs. Polyclar effectivness is based on surface area and VT is far to course for efficient use in beer. If you want a straight PVPP filter/stabilizer aid then Polyclar10 is the only choice for home brewers. Even better by far is Polyclar730 which works on both sides of the chill haze equation (phenols and tannins), (edit) Polyclar730 is a blend of PVPP and silica xerogel (fummed silica).

I have been using Brewbrite and Polyclar730 in combination for all my pale beers for some time and woudln't consider changing. Also bare in mind the cost when buying these products they are extremely cheap so don't get ripped off.

happy brewing

 

[Darren]

Admittedly, not read the sheets. I thought PVPP would "melt" in the boil as it is insoluble!!

cheers

Darren

 

[MHB]

IUPAC name

[show]​

PolyvinylpyrrolidoneOther names 1-Ethenyl-2-pyrrolidon homopolymer
Poly[1-(2-oxo-1-pyrrolidinyl)ethylen]
Polyvidone
1-Vinyl-2-pyrrolidinon-Polymere
PVP
Crospovidone

IdentifiersCAS number9003-39-8PropertiesMolecular formula(C₆H₉NO)_nMolar mass2.500 - 2.5000.000 gmol⁻¹Appearancewhite to light yellow, hygroscopic, amorphous powderDensity1,2 g/cmMelting point110 - 180 C (glass temperature)

HazardsMSDSMSDS for PVP from EMD ChemicalsExcept where noted otherwise, data are given for
materials in their standard state
(at 25 C, 100 kPa)
Infobox references

A Quick click on Wiki, MP (galss) 110-180 C

Bit hotter than most kettles.

MHB

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Admittedly, not read the sheets. I thought PVPP would "melt" in the boil as it is insoluble!!

cheers

Darren

I thought it might kind of deform and/or lose its physical property that makes it work, but having read the manufacturer's sheet and the thing TB found and thought about it a bit more, I figure not. It will certainly get mixed in with the wort better than when sprinkled on top of green beer in the fermenter as I did a couple of days ago and consider it worked very well.

The thing TB found also suggested that I can expect a higher peak yeast cell count in wort treated in this way. That can't be a bad thing.

 

[haysie]

I have a bag of polyclar purchased from CB, PITA, so I didnt bother sprinkling my beers again. Now, I may have a need to get rid of it, if using whirfloc koppafloc what dose would you be adding on top of, single batch
.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I've been using Brewbrite for around a year now and can vouch for its performance. I've had the same batch since ISP sent me the samples and I seams to still be performing as it did the day I received it.

As for polyclar VT it is not intended for beer it is for preventing pinking and browning in wine and the particle size has been optimised for just that, the addition rate if you wish to use vt as a filter aid for beer needs to be in the order of 5-10 times what is claimed. Don't take my word for it ask ISP for yourselfs. Polyclar effectivness is based on surface area and VT is far to course for efficient use in beer. If you want a straight PVPP filter/stabilizer aid then Polyclar10 is the only choice for home brewers. Even better by far is Polyclar730 which works on both sides of the chill haze equation (phenols and tannins), (edit) Polyclar730 is a blend of PVPP and silica xerogel (fummed silica).

I have been using Brewbrite and Polyclar730 in combination for all my pale beers for some time and woudln't consider changing. Also bare in mind the cost when buying these products they are extremely cheap so don't get ripped off.

happy brewing

VT works well enough, because most homebrewers aren't adding it as a filter aid, in fact they choose VT because of its large particle size which means it can easily be settled out rather than filtered out, the majority of homebrewers not being filterers - the recommended dose for homebrewers is quite a bit higher than you would use with PC 10 or 730, and there is the fact that the contact time is (especially if not filtering) is a great big chunk higher than it would be with PC being dosed into the line pre-filter.

I use PC 10 because I have access to it and I filter - and I often blend it with some silica gel to emulate the whole PC730 thing. I get away with a fair bit less than I would use if I was using VT - those products are remarkably effective, as is either in isolation. But the VT works perfectly well.

Plus an easier ask for HB shops ot stock, the product being used by both homebrewers AND winemakers. Much more chance of turnover.

I do like the boil option a lot though and I guess it will become my preferred application method for polyclar (assuming it works as expected)

Haysie - I would have a look at the study and see what dosage they used - otherwise I will just be using my "normal" dose + a little for the higher volume in the kettleand seeing if it works.

 

[dig]

I have used BrewBrite commercially with very good results. All the stuff that ISP claims AND, anecdotally, less hop tannin impact in big, hoppy beers. I got good results at 8g/hl; a fair bit lower than the 15g recommended. It's not cheap though... Might be good for a bulk buy/divvy up.

 

[Gough]

I have used BrewBrite commercially with very good results. All the stuff that ISP claims AND, anecdotally, less hop tannin impact in big, hoppy beers. I got good results at 8g/hl; a fair bit lower than the 15g recommended. It's not cheap though... Might be good for a bulk buy/divvy up.

FWIW we use Brewbrite in all our beers and very happy with the results.
Similar rates to what Dig quotes above...

Shawn.

 

[Steve]

PITA, so I didnt bother sprinkling my beers again.

What were you doing with it. Why was it a PITA?

 

[The King of Spain]

So if you are using VT would you (1) still prepare the same way (ie <5 C and stirred for however long) and (2) would you bother using it again when you are cold chilling?

Edit: Spelling

 

[Ross]

To get the most out of your Polycar VT add to the chilled wort post ferment. you are wasting it adding to the boil.

Cheers Ross

 

[Thirsty Boy]

well, not wasting - perhaps using a little more than you might if you had polyclar 10 or the brewbrite in question

Polyclar VT is PVPP just like all the other PVPP we are talking about, and works exactly the same way - its just that it has a lower surface area per unit of weight. However, added to the boil, it will have a MUCH longer contact period than added to a fermenter post chilling, so that will go quite a way to compensating. VT isn't the ideal stuff, stuff, but there is no reason it wouldn't still work perfectly well.

Reading the links and attachments I posted, will let you see that one of the advantages of putting the polyclar in the boil, is that the boiling of the kettle does a sufficient job of hydrating it, so you wouldn't have to hydrate/agitate for the normal period. I might be tempted to stir it into a cup of wort outside the kettle though - tipping a powdery, high surface area substance straight into you kettle can result in a bit of foaming - which might make a mess, or at least stick half the product to the sides of the kettle rather than have it in the wort where its supposed to be.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Well, I perhaps wasted 5grams of Polyclar VT yesterday.

Of course, it remains to be seen what will happen and it might not work as well as I might hope because I combined that experiment with Thirsty Boy's cube-hopping idea. I added my FWHops as I lifted the bag and then did nothing until T-10minutes when I made my single kettle addition of koppafloc, yeast nutrient and Polyclar. I added my combined bittering/flavour/aroma/chill-haze hops to the cube calculated from a 20minute addition just prior to decanting the wort to cube. Whether or not the Polyclar that made it into the cube has enough interest in any haze-forming compounds seeping out of the hops is at point here.

The action of the boil seemed to wet down the powders nicely so nothing seemed to attach itself to the kettle - the kettle was not noticeably harder to clean than normal. I *thought* that when I finished whirlpooling the wort looked clearer than I would normally expect, but that could be down to any of a number of reasons, including the relative lack of hop matter and wishful thinking.

I can't find anything from the manufacturers of Polyclar to suggest the difference between the various products is anything more than granule size and what they add to it. So, if PVPP is chemically identical (which it is by definition), and its physical properties are the same across the product line (ignoring the additives, which in this case is koppafloc), the only difference I can see is its effectiveness in any given situation due to its particle size.

But to prove this, rigorous experimentation is required. Oh dear...