Polyclar As A Kettle Addition

[haysie]

i added 2 grams with my normal kettle finings at 10 min, i added a further 1.5 gm stirred with some drawn off wort at 2 min. For mine, the break didnt look any different, I didnt see any more wort or shite in my kettle or fermenter than i normally would (plate chilled),i stirred it up and didnt allow it to stick to the walls although the initial dose chunked up. i`ll monitor the beer, wait n see, IMO, no kettle finings does just as well IF you have patience, whirlpool wait 30 minutes with a lid on the kettle come back run off, clear with a solid break. But, I gotta use that bag of VT, and i am not going to swirl and rehydrate til the cows come home. PITA.

 

[dr K]

TB's comments, especially read in conjunction with the data sheet he downloaded make a lot of sense.
I have spent some time over the last 12 months thinking and reading about colloidal stability, particularly in relation to polyphenols. Brewbrite certainly seems to be an attractive and effective general purpose clarifying and stabilizing product.
My current regime is simply Whirlfloc in the last 5 minutes, crash cooling and gelatin works well enough not to vary but I am fascinated by Brewbrite.

K

 

[Cortez The Killer]

Sorta on topic

I forgot the whirlfloc addition in my last batch (usually at 10 mins) - didn't realise until the cube was just about full

So I chucked it in the cube and hey presto! still crystal clear beer

Cheers

 

[rude]

jeez no chill haze cortez ?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The proteins that are responsible for "chill haze" aren't the main ones precipitated in the boil - with an inadequate hot break you might get protein haze... but it would (probably) be a more permanent haze and not temperature dependent. The proteins that make for chill haze are a different length and the haze is a result of complexing with polyphenols. The proteins by themselves aren't big enough to see.

Kettle finings such as whirlfloc aren't necessary for bright haze free beer... they are just an insurance policy. You will get a "better" hot break and less likelyhood of protein haze... that doesn't necessarily mean a lesser hot break, just from the boil, would not be good enough by itself. Belt AND braces.. just to be sure.

The polyclar... kind of like making sure you have on clean undies... just in case both the belt and the braces don't do the trick.

Haysie - boil additions aside - you don't "need " to agitate and rehydrate the polyclar VT. You just get more bang for your buck if you do. Sprinkle a tablespoon or two (say half again the recommended dose) of the stuff on top of your fermentor at the end of fermentation and by the time its crash cooled and you are ready to keg, it'll have done its job.

Darren chastised me about how unnecessary it was to rehydrate Polyclar - and on reflection I realized he was right, hydration is about the speed and efficiency with which the polyclar does its job. More powder and more time - and the effort can be reduced. I have been sprinkling on top of my fermentor since Darren shoved me (ungently) towards my epiphany. Not a whiff of chill haze

 

[haysie]

:icon_offtopic:
TB, previously adding to the top of chilled wort, i had a brown .2mm of dark protein, very small amount, left me wondering what was this protein that now lay on a healthy yeast cake, i thought plastic and threw the cake. i reckon it would be hard work to get it out of a slurry/starter and the long term plastic thing?
? Is this stuff healthy, detrimental or otherwise for yeast. ? 6 month shelf life
Haysie

 

[dr K]

Kettle finings such as whirlfloc aren't necessary for bright haze free beer... they are just an insurance policy. You will get a "better" hot break and less likelyhood of protein haze... that doesn't necessarily mean a lesser hot break, just from the boil, would not be good enough by itself.

TB..stop being naughty, you know that "Hot Break" occours early on in the boil (before 100C usually) and you know that Whirlfloc/Irish Moss etc are added well after the hot break has completed , in fact in the dieing minutes of the boil and are used to help the so-called cold break.

K

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

TB..stop being naughty, you know that "Hot Break" occours early on in the boil (before 100C usually) and you know that Whirlfloc/Irish Moss etc are added well after the hot break has completed , in fact in the dieing minutes of the boil and are used to help the so-called cold break.

K

Yep Whirlfloc just adds a net like "Net" to bind all those hot breaks together so it forms a nice jelly fish in the bottom of the kettle.I cant see it working on the cold break l, I can say from experience.I always end up with cold break in the fermenter, but I chill into the fermenter not pre chill in the kettle, thats the way my system is designed.PVPP is a good insurance policy for chill haze, yet isinglass will also remove chill haze if used at the right time and drop any yeast as well.
GB

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

:icon_offtopic:
TB, previously adding to the top of chilled wort, i had a brown .2mm of dark protein, very small amount, left me wondering what was this protein that now lay on a healthy yeast cake, i thought plastic and threw the cake. i reckon it would be hard work to get it out of a slurry/starter and the long term plastic thing?
? Is this stuff healthy, detrimental or otherwise for yeast. ? 6 month shelf life
Haysie

I my opinion I would not (I dont) be re using any yeast after you have used PVPP, Gelatine or Isinglass.Would you use a condom twice?
GB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

TB..stop being naughty, you know that "Hot Break" occours early on in the boil (before 100C usually) and you know that Whirlfloc/Irish Moss etc are added well after the hot break has completed , in fact in the dieing minutes of the boil and are used to help the so-called cold break.

K

See Gryphon's reply above as to why you aren't quite correct - I thought I was perfectly clear about the fact that kettle finings weren't necessary for an adequate hot break, they merely make it work better.

Sure, the actual precipitation of the protein from solution might mostly happen before the wort even gets to 100, but that's not the whole story with hot break formation - a chunk of what people think of when they refer to hot break, is the flocculation and settling of that protein... which the kettle finings does assist.

I'm with Gryphon in that I don't see a particularly large connection between cargeenan and cold break formation - maybe the same as hot break, helps it floc and fall?


Gryphon - the article I posted actually talks about the presence of PVPP increasing yeast activity and peak cell count. So I don't know if it actually would be all that bad to re-use yeast with a bit of PVPP in it. The Polyclar Brewbrite is a commercial product, I'm just imagining that there wouldn't be much call for a commercial additive that stoped breweries re-pitching their yeast.

Still - on a homebrew level, no need is there? Just grow a new pitch from a very small amount of yeast - virtually no worries about crossover then.

TB

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

ISPCorp make a re-usable form of PVPP, which they suggest cleansing with a caustic solution. I'm assuming that with such a regime, you remove all the stuff that has attached itself to the PVPP and make it a bit more sanitary. That would be good if you were buying your supply in 44-gallon drums...

So, if (and I have no intention of doing so) you wanted to reuse the PVPP and followed the manufacturer's recommendation, it probably would not harm subsequent yeast pitches, such as you might see in a commercial brewery.

(Again) so, the only harm I can see from repitching the yeast combined with used PVPP (apart from anything connoted from used condoms) would be from that stuff that attached itself to the PVPP in the prior use if it did anything at all. However, it does seem that you are now carrying a lot of extra stuff around with your yeast and I would have to wonder if it is really worth it when you look at what monetary value you are really saving.

I threw 8grams of Polyclar VT into a double (46 litre) batch of Special Bitter yesterday which is about to have some yeast thrown at it. As best I can tell, no PVPP made its way into the cubes and (hopefully) less will be in the fermenters.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Thanks Guys This is the most technically interesting thread I have read for ages,should be more of it for us more technically minded brewers, great to see some personal experiences quoted.Makes me want to experiment.
GB

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

BTW has anyone used the liquid Papain enzyme that is sold by brewcraft ? if so does it work and does it have a short shelf life ?I know it is/was used by bigger breweries at some time. I only used it once and got my one and only infected beer ! I did a quick Australian Google but didnt bring up much info.Any ideas?
GB

 

[Batz]

Darren chastised me about how unnecessary it was to rehydrate Polyclar - and on reflection I realized he was right, hydration is about the speed and efficiency with which the polyclar does its job. More powder and more time - and the effort can be reduced. I have been sprinkling on top of my fermentor since Darren shoved me (ungently) towards my epiphany. Not a whiff of chill haze

TB,




So how much do you sprinkle on top ? Do you have to increase the dosage?


Sprinkling instead of rehydrating sounds interesting.


Batz

 

[haysie]

well i reckon you guys continue on, the times i have used this polyclar, rehydration was the word so, stirplate and sprinkle. I dont secondary so my yeast was ratshite IMO(the dinger twice cumms to mind) so conjure some more yeast, on a homebrew scale this is all work for 7/8ths of fa improvement.
My ale i added at near end boil a tablesppon of poly then knowing i wasnt going too touch the yeast cake i added another tablespoon at end of fermentation then CC, there is not an ounce of improvement to this beer because of the polyclar At its current price i dont see a huge homebrew market, keep whirfloccin and gelatining. I still have half a bag of plastic, maybe tip the lot in the boil and make the break stick to the sides, no whirlpooling.. Theres a thought

 

[Thirsty Boy]

haysie - were you having chill haze problems in the first place?? Because thats the only reason to be using polyclar.

If there was no chill haze issue - polyclar will make no visible difference

If there was a chill haze issue - then polyclar very much should, and in my experience does, make a difference

This stuff is not about general clarity, its not about yeast haze - the only thing it is about is chill haze which is polyphenol/protein complexing. If you expect something else from it, you will be disappointed, if it doesn't do the job for chill haze... I strongly suspect something is awry, because it should.

The whole idea of using it in the boil, is an aside to and an alternative way to achieve, the main purpose of chill haze reduction. It's not a replacement, nor is it intended to be, for whirlfloc or gelatine - the purposes of those things are entirely different

Batz - I am just using more or less the recommended dose... But the Polyclar I use isn't the VT and I suspect I was overdosing anyway. Just use the same amount, but do it the day before you filter - same same. Sort of. Also, no need for things to be cold - the chill haze does not have to have formed for the PC to work. It does not work by settling out or in any way working on the "haze" particles, it works on the pre-cursors and is effective at basically any point and any temperature in the brewing process.

Try em all and see which you like the best

 

[altstart]

Very interesting thread, where can I get some Brewbrite to try.
Cheers Altstart

 

[haysie]

I was obvoiusly wrong too think "Poly" made a difference re. beer clarity.Lack of Chill haze being the goal not nesaccarily clarity.
As we all know there are many ways too skin a cat re. beer clarity.
Chill haze, another story!
Chill haze for me, no idea, never really experienced a stand out problem with it, although some malts IMO, Marris Otter, JW Wheat are far more suss re. haze problems than say a good Wyermann, they clear like a window then once chilled become opaque.
My 2 beers treated with Poly arnt at the haze judicial bench yet, I suspect as TB pointed out, no problem "why" . Why not :huh:

 

[Darren]

Also, no need for things to be cold - the chill haze does not have to have formed for the PC to work. It does not work by settling out or in any way working on the "haze" particles, it works on the pre-cursors and is effective at basically any point and any temperature in the brewing process.

TB, I am wondering about that? Whilst the polyphenols are clumped as haze would it work better at precipitating the haze??

cheers

Darren

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

haysie - were you having chill haze problems in the first place?? Because thats the only reason to be using polyclar.

If there was no chill haze issue - polyclar will make no visible difference

If there was a chill haze issue - then polyclar very much should, and in my experience does, make a difference

This stuff is not about general clarity, its not about yeast haze - the only thing it is about is chill haze which is polyphenol/protein complexing. If you expect something else from it, you will be disappointed, if it doesn't do the job for chill haze... I strongly suspect something is awry, because it should.

The whole idea of using it in the boil, is an aside to and an alternative way to achieve, the main purpose of chill haze reduction. It's not a replacement, nor is it intended to be, for whirlfloc or gelatine - the purposes of those things are entirely different

Batz - I am just using more or less the recommended dose... But the Polyclar I use isn't the VT and I suspect I was overdosing anyway. Just use the same amount, but do it the day before you filter - same same. Sort of. Also, no need for things to be cold - the chill haze does not have to have formed for the PC to work. It does not work by settling out or in any way working on the "haze" particles, it works on the pre-cursors and is effective at basically any point and any temperature in the brewing process.

Try em all and see which you like the best

Thirsty I tend to agree.What you say about pre cursors is correct.Its a preventative measure. Makes me think how they use to have haze free beers before PVPP.May be there were never poly phenols before. :lol: Well I guess they were always there but no one really gave a shit.I dont know for sure.I found chill haze in a lot of may beers recently, but I chill form the haze and drop it out with Isinglass.One material does the job.PVPP is a new product, when others have been around for ages.Each to there own .
GB