Specialty Grains ...your Thoughts...methods

[simpletotoro]

hi i was asked this question in a different thread but figured it would make for a good dissusion topic on its own ..below is the original question and my reply ...what are others brewers thoughts on specialty grains and what are you methods for using them ...what quantities do you think the're effective at etc...
hell it doesn't even have to be about specialty grains as such... tell us about your expirences with
partials / mini mashes ...what methods you use ...equipment etc...did it work was it worth the effort...
cheers ST


QUOTE(Fatgodzilla @ Jun 29 2007, 11:10 AM)

hey simpletotoro, just to round off the topic, how about a simple explanation of the crystal malt and the carapils - what do they add to the brew. Taste, aroma, body ?? I've played with them a little but often forget they're there by the time I drink the. A simple xplanation might help me, and Twenty, and all other novices out !


Fatgodzilla
okay...good question...firstly let me tell you i to am still a novice i only
started brewing in december and have only brewed 20 odd beers...first four you
could say were ok after that i learned about temp control and upon tasting the
result of a beer fermented at the correct temp hit the ground running...still most
of what i write is merely regurated info from brewers much more experienced then
me...but i'll have a burl at answering your question...(in a nut shell i'd say
adding specialty grains of any kind will do a combination of the following
things...)
[1] taste (different grains add different tastes to your beer...more later on
specifics)
[2] aroma (yeah my opinion is that there is a slight aroma quality to adding
grains...obiviously the more you add slightly more aromatic the final
product...bear in mind this may be the product of an overactive imagination )
[3] body (yep definitely ...once again i think its subtle but defintely an added
boast in my opinion)
[4] colour (from slight to dark depending on the grain added and the amout added)
okay now to answer your question a little more clearly
QUESTION:crystal malt and the carapils - what do they add to the brew.?
ANSWERkay carapils first ...the following i pinched from grumpys website so its
their words not mine okay but it says it much more simply and eloquently then i
ever could..."Weyermann CaraPils EBC = 3-5
Use 5% to 10% for improved body and head retention. Ideal for European
Pilsener styles or for adding body without adding colour. Also known as dextrin
malt or carapils. NO MASH REQUIRED " link below
link http://www.grumpys.com.au
also from another site this which says a little about what a dextrin is ...but not
much.... Carapils is a brand name and is ....is a very pale crystal malt. Other
maltsters make similar products and sometimes use names like dextrin or cara-pils
to describe their products.[the last bit i pinched to from link below..)
link http://byo.com/mrwizard/776.html

A dextrin is an unfermentable carbohydrate chain that is not large enough to be
considered starch.this i am led to believe it helps create mouthfeel and body in a
beer...which is basicly what my homebrew shop dude told it does...

now crystal malt... often called caramel malts...john palmer says it like this

(direct quote) "Caramel Malts (may be steeped or mashed)
Caramel Malts have undergone a special heat "stewing" process after the malting
which crystallizes the sugars. These sugars are caramelized into longer chains that
are not converted into simple sugars by the enzymes during the mash. This results
in a more malty, caramel sweet, fuller tasting beer. These malts are used for
almost all ale and higher gravity lager styles. Various crystal malts are often
added in half pound amounts to a total of 5-25% of the grain bill for a 5 gallon
batch.

Caramel 10 10 L This malt adds a light honey-like sweetness and some body to the
finished beer.
Caramel 40 40 L The additional color and light caramel sweetness of this malt is
perfect for pale ales and amber lagers.
Caramel 60 60 L This is the most commonly used caramel malt, also known as medium
crystal. It is well suited for pale ales, English style bitters, porters and
stouts. It adds a full caramel taste and body to the beer.
Caramel 80 80 L This malt is used for making reddish colored beers and gives a
lightly bittersweet caramel flavor.
Caramel 120 120 L This malt adds a lot of color and bittersweet caramel flavor.
Useful in small amounts to add complexity or in greater amounts for old ales,
barleywines and doppelbocks."

end quote
link to palmers how to brew below.
link http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-1.html

basicly to me crystal malt (i use the medium one mostly cause it whats available)
adds a nice sweetness to the beer ...read a nice sweetness if you use it in
appropiate quanties ...i tend to use about 200-250 grams when making an ale ... and
as i said above i believe it adds body,slight aroma and a richer colour to the
finished product...

NOTE : when i use specialty grains like carapils and crystal this is what i do
(others have different ways of doing it ...what follows is how i was taught and it
works for me...)
firstly i boil say 1 1/2 litres of water in the kettle add it to my smaller brew
pot ...check temp when it goes down to 80/c i add my grains ...their thermal mass
reduces this down to the mid to low 70's/c i bung on the lid and leave steeping for
1/2 hour ...i strain these grains (through a cheap fine guaze strainer from BIG W
..some people use a grain bag ) ...into my bigger brew pot and rinse with recently
boiled water say 1 litre or just a little less to extract a little more from the
grains ( again temp of this water i am told is not critical but mine is around
70-80/c )... don't squish the grains in the strainer as this i'm told will release
tannins which are astringent same i am told goes for stirring grains whilst their
steeping...i chuck the spent grain in the garden or compost bin and boil the
resulting liquid for 20 - 30 mins ( to help kill any of the bugs that may be
present in the solution) before adding malt hops etc to make my extract...i'm told
i don't need to boil the resulting liquid so long but i do anyway...

check out this grain guide below for more info on this kind of stuff i think
bconnery made it...
grain guide
View attachment grainsguide1.xls

also i'll bung in bconnerys hops guide this is bloody brillant...
hops guide
View attachment hopsguide.xls


*** BIG BIG DISCLAIMER THIS IS WHAT I THINK ...I MAY BE WRONG IF I AM PLEASE LET ME
KNOW ...***
hope this helps
cheers simpletotoro

 

[Pandreas]

Well done simpletotoro!!!

Great post, thanks for putting in the effort!

Nice to have all that information in one place for quick and easy reference. Will be a great help to me, and I reckon lots of other newbie brewers!

Cheers!

 

[Fatgodzilla]

hi i was asked this question in a different thread but figured it would make for a good dissusion topic on its own below is the oringinal question and my reply ...what are others brewers thoughts on specialty grains and what are you methods for using them ...what quanties do you think the're effective at etc...
hell it doesn't even have to be about specialty grains as such... tell us about your expirences with
partials / mini mashes ...what methods you use ...equipment etc...did it work was it worth the effort...
cheers ST
QUOTE(Fatgodzilla @ Jun 29 2007, 11:10 AM)

hey simpletotoro, just to round off the topic, how about a simple explanation of the crystal malt and the carapils - what do they add to the brew. Taste, aroma, body ?? I've played with them a little but often forget they're there by the time I drink the. A simple xplanation might help me, and Twenty, and all other novices out !
Fatgodzilla
okay...good question...firstly let me tell you i to am still a novice i only
started brewing in december and have only brewed 20 odd beers...first four you
could say were ok after that i learned about temp control and upon tasting the
result of a beer fermented at the correct temp hit the ground running...still most
of what i write is merely regurated info from brewers much more experienced then
me...but i'll have a burl at answering your question...(in a nut shell i'd say
adding specialty grains of any kind will do a combination of the following
things...)
[1] taste (different grains add different tastes to your beer...more later on
specifics)
[2] aroma (yeah my opinion is that there is a slight aroma quality to adding
grains...obiviously the more you add slightly more aromatic the final
product...bear in mind this may be the product of an overactive imagination )
[3] body (yep definitely ...once again i think its subtle but defintely an added
boast in my opinion)
[4] colour (from slight to dark depending on the grain added and the amout added)
okay now to answer your question a little more clearly
QUESTION:crystal malt and the carapils - what do they add to the brew.?
ANSWERkay carapils first ...the following i pinched from grumpys website so its
their words not mine okay but it says it much more simply and eloquently then i
ever could..."Weyermann CaraPils EBC = 3-5
Use 5% to 10% for improved body and head retention. Ideal for European
Pilsener styles or for adding body without adding colour. Also known as dextrin
malt or carapils. NO MASH REQUIRED " link below
link http://www.grumpys.com.au
also from another site this which says a little about what a dextrin is ...but not
much.... Carapils is a brand name and is ....is a very pale crystal malt. Other
maltsters make similar products and sometimes use names like dextrin or cara-pils
to describe their products.[the last bit i pinched to from link below..)
link http://byo.com/mrwizard/776.html

A dextrin is an unfermentable carbohydrate chain that is not large enough to be
considered starch.this i am led to believe it helps create mouthfeel and body in a
beer...which is basicly what my homebrew shop dude told it does...

now crystal malt... often called caramel malts...john palmer says it like this

(direct quote) "Caramel Malts (may be steeped or mashed)
Caramel Malts have undergone a special heat "stewing" process after the malting
which crystallizes the sugars. These sugars are caramelized into longer chains that
are not converted into simple sugars by the enzymes during the mash. This results
in a more malty, caramel sweet, fuller tasting beer. These malts are used for
almost all ale and higher gravity lager styles. Various crystal malts are often
added in half pound amounts to a total of 5-25% of the grain bill for a 5 gallon
batch.

Caramel 10 10 L This malt adds a light honey-like sweetness and some body to the
finished beer.
Caramel 40 40 L The additional color and light caramel sweetness of this malt is
perfect for pale ales and amber lagers.
Caramel 60 60 L This is the most commonly used caramel malt, also known as medium
crystal. It is well suited for pale ales, English style bitters, porters and
stouts. It adds a full caramel taste and body to the beer.
Caramel 80 80 L This malt is used for making reddish colored beers and gives a
lightly bittersweet caramel flavor.
Caramel 120 120 L This malt adds a lot of color and bittersweet caramel flavor.
Useful in small amounts to add complexity or in greater amounts for old ales,
barleywines and doppelbocks."

end quote
link to palmers how to brew below.
link http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-1.html

basicly to me crystal malt (i use the medium one mostly cause it whats available)
adds a nice sweetness to the beer ...read a nice sweetness if you use it in
appropiate quanties ...i tend to use about 200-250 grams when making an ale ... and
as i said above i believe it adds body,slight aroma and a richer colour to the
finished product...

NOTE : when i use specialty grains like carapils and crystal this is what i do
(others have different ways of doing it ...what follows is how i was taught and it
works for me...)
firstly i boil say 1 1/2 litres of water in the kettle add it to my smaller brew
pot ...check temp when it goes down to 80/c i add my grains ...their thermal mass
reduces this down to the mid to low 70's/c i bung on the lid and leave steeping for
1/2 hour ...i strain these grains (through a cheap fine guaze strainer from BIG W
..some people use a grain bag ) ...into my bigger brew pot and rinse with recently
boiled water say 1 litre or just a little less to extract a little more from the
grains ( again temp of this water i am told is now critical but mine is around
70-80/c )... don't squish the grains in the strainer as this i'm told will release
tannins which are astringent same i am told goes for stirring grains whilst their
steepeing...i chuck the spent grain in the garden or compost bin and boil the
resulting liquid for 20 - 30 mins ( to help kill any of the bugs that may be
present in the solution) before adding malt hops etc to make my extract...i'm told
i don't need to boil the resulting liquid so long but i do anyway...

check out this grain guide below for more info on this kind of stuff i think
bconnery made it...
grain guide
grainsguide1.xls ( 30k ) Number of downloads: 0

also i'll bung in bconnerys hops guide this is bloody brillant...
hops guide
hopsguide.xls ( 33k ) Number of downloads: 0
*** BIG BIG DISCLAIMER THIS IS WHAT I THINK ...I MAY BE WRONG IF I AM PLEASE LET ME
KNOW ...***
hope this helps
cheers simpletotoro

Thanks. Excellant answer (taking into account the BIG BIG DISCLAIMER) I'll follow the threads that you've included. Often there is too much information (and far too much smugness) when some of the AG Nazis respond to rather than answer simple questions. These forums are great to learn from but can be fragmented too easily. Appreciate the effort you put into the answer. God brewing !!

 

[discoloop]

Yeah, top effort, simpletoro!

I've only just started experimenting with specialty grains. I'm yet to taste the fruits of my labour (a california common inspired beer and a schwarzbier) but from the fermenter it seems like I'll have fantastic results.

It may seem a bit scary or tricky at first, but what surprised me is how easy it really is! I can set my oven to just shy of 70 degrees, so I just heat the water and pop the grain bag in and stick it in a low oven for half an hour. It's a shame 70 is the lowest my oven will go - I think that's too high for a partial mash.

 

[DarkFaerytale]

what sort of temps do you get with the door in the oven open discoloop, something to look into

-Phill

 

[bconnery]

Yeah, top effort, simpletoro!

I've only just started experimenting with specialty grains. I'm yet to taste the fruits of my labour (a california common inspired beer and a schwarzbier) but from the fermenter it seems like I'll have fantastic results.

It may seem a bit scary or tricky at first, but what surprised me is how easy it really is! I can set my oven to just shy of 70 degrees, so I just heat the water and pop the grain bag in and stick it in a low oven for half an hour. It's a shame 70 is the lowest my oven will go - I think that's too high for a partial mash.

70 is what my oven does, I used just this technique for partial mashes quite a lot, albiet without the bag...

With bringing it out to check and what not it seemed to be OK.

I kept mine very small though, more mini mash than partial, but it definitely worked and helped...

 

[discoloop]

what sort of temps do you get with the door in the oven open discoloop, something to look into

Hmmmm....There's a thought. Cheers! Will try it out.

 

[wildschwein]

I usually use crystal and chocolate malts which I buy from my HBS in 200g bags which sell for $2.20 each. The crystal isn't labeled with a Lovibond number but it's a lighter type. The choc malt has a powerful flavour and colouring effect on beer. It smells quite coffee-like when being steeped. In fact, there is an old German war time hot beverage called Maltz Kaffee (malt coffee) made originally with malt roasted to a dark brown colour and brewed as a coffee substitute when real coffee was hard to come by. Non-caffeine beverages like Caro and Ecco, made with roasted barley, malt and chicory are the descendants of Maltz Kaffee. I have found that choc malt adds a roasted, slightly bitter taste to beer with a light coffee note. 100g seems to haved a pretty powerful effect on a 23L batch of beer. It turns a light staw coloured beer to a light mahogany brown. Even 50g has a drastic effect on the beer's colour. It does seem to add a little more body to the beer but the effect in my opinion is mainly flavour, colour and aroma.

I've done 200g crystal steeps for a 23L batch on a couple of occasions and have found definite positive effects on the quality of the final beer. The head retention is better. The body of the beer is noticably thicker and there is often a very slight sweetness in the final taste. Along with hops additions the inclusion of a crystal steep in a regular kit and kilo recipe takes it from the ordinary to the proffessional.

I've posted my method on other threads but here it is again. I first grind the grain in my 1930s hand wound meat mincer through the finer plate. I then put the cracked grain in a pot and cover with 1.5L of 35C water (for 200g of crystal malt). I then leave it for 30 minutes. I then put it on the stove and bring the temp up to the mid 60s and turn off the heat. Carry over heat can take the temp up to 70. If so I move the pot off the still warm electric element and put a lid on. Once the element has started to cool a little I put the pot back on to help keep the temp more constant. I then leave it to steep for up to an hour. When ready, I pour the fluid through a fine sieve into my brew kettle. All the grain still has some material left in it, so I often add around another 500mls of hot, but not boiling water, to the grain to rinse it off. The resulting liquid is also sieved into the brew kettle. This fluid is then boiled with my other kilo of fermentables (malt, dex etc). The chooks like the spent grain but last time I used it to make bread with and it turned out really well. Recipe is here :Spent Specialty Grain Bread Recipe