AG! Worth it or not?

[livo]

I've just been looking at this again. Buying just the MT alone does not appear to be all that is required, and I'm not sure it can be used as shipped. There is a list of accessories that go with it. The Essentials kit. You don't get much for $63.95 but apparently you need it. Nice would be the Recirculation kit for another $185.95 and the Sparge Arm for $59 and then apparently you need the 1/2" to 3/8" MT Bulkead Fitting for another $12. Total $639.90 plus delivery.

Edit. It can be used as is. Nothing else required as I already have the stuff in the Essentials Pack anyway. Very helpful discussion with the young bloke at the shop. Recirc kit out of stock anyway.

 

[livo]

Well, at the risk of possibly ending up with 2 of these, I've just ordered the MT and Sparge Arm. A big thank you to everybody for input and Ss Brewtech Australia. They couldn't have been more helpful and worked out the delivery fee for the Sparge Arm, plus extra discount. You have about 6 hours if you want one for yourself at $500 off regular price and $40 off the Sparge Arm.

Interesting that they told me a lot of people are heading towards single vessel brewing, so I could easily have gone the other way. No pressure and was completely my decision in the end.

 

[Unslaven]

I think you scored. Congrats.
The SSBT mash tuns are nice, especially their newer TC versions, and the pure flow valves, despite never laying my hands on one look like a perfect solution to a simple problem.

Are you planning on using a pump or just gravity feeding back into the Digiboil? Or using your 10gal kettle somehow?

(edit: sorry i did just read you had a pump)

I ask for a couple of reasons:

Sparge. Being able to separate sparge water to slowly draw off whilst keeping an even amount of water over the grain bed is good, but not essential. This will help with efficiency/cost which was the original point of this thread.

Vorlauf (recirculating through the grain bed so when you transfer you don't end up with grain in the kettle) helps with ending up with too much protein in the kettle/fermenter, which (arguably. Lots of conflicting research) isn't great for the wort. Also, if you ever plan on using a plate chiller, it's imperative to have as little particulate as possible to stop clogging. This will also help with efficiency.

Weight. I have the 20 gal SSBT MT. Its heavy. When full of wet grain, even a 7kg grain bill, I can't (shouldn't) lift it. SSBT don't seem to post the weights of these products anywhere, but I guarantee you'll be surprised, even with the 10 gal. More than likely it contributed to your shipping cost.
I worry mainly that if you're going to have to have it up high to gravity feed it's going to be hazardous to empty. You can obviously climb a ladder/milkcrate and scoop it out manually, but that will be tiresome, and you'll probably still have to lift it down/up to clean it.

Also, as it seems this is your first foray into AG, make sure you have a plan for your spent grain. It will have maggots in 36 hours if you leave it out. Chickens don't really eat it, or at least not in the quantities you'll be producing it. Livestock will but we don't all have those handy. Compost is great but if its enclosed compost it will ferment in there so hot it'll kill your worms. You can obviously bin it but that circulates back on that you'll have maggots in 36 hours. Don't want to put you off, but something to think about.

Also if you don't have 1, get a wall socket timer so you can preheat your sparge/mash water overnight. AG brew days can be surprisingly long, and you will always need more hot water than you think. Ideally when you've finished sparging, the grain bed is still covered in water, so that might be 20L+ more than you think you'll need per batch, and sparging with a kitchen kettle is a PITA. World commercial average is 4-6L of water used per 1L of beer produced. Obviously that's not all sparging loss but it does make you think.
So fill that 65L up and get it heating.

EDIT:
OH. Forgot to write this.
These SSBT mash tuns seal TIGHT. Make sure when you're draining the mash tun you take off the lid, or disconnect the connection to the multifunction top side inlet. You can 100% implode your vessel if you drain it without some kind of pressure relief. Even a 2cm drop in fluid level in the MLT and I struggle to get the lid off.
Just be careful. Stainless just doesn't look as good when its crinkled.

 

[livo]

All great stuff to know, so thanks Unslaven. I asked and the 10 gallon MT weighs about 11 - 12 kg empty. I will be hopefully positioning the 3 vats in such a way to make transfers and cleaning as easy as possible. The boil pot, if used, will be gas heated so it will be lower and possibly gravity fed. I am still considering going back into the digiboil and only using 2 vessels. I'm setting up from scratch so this was all good to know.

I have done AG before using homemade esky MT and 2 20 litre SS boil pots.

The recirculation manifold kit, which includes the vorlauf and other fittings is currently out of stock, but I do hope to acquire it later. Hopefully the sparge arm will do for starters.

My wife has a couple of horses but I'm not sure she'll want feed them too much cooked barley. I have enough land to dispose of spent grain and a couple of large composting areas so that should be OK. I'm not in a suburban area.

Edit: I added the threaded bulkhead fitting to my order yesterday, which replaces the multifunction top 3/4" TC connection inlet and allows retrofitting of other threaded fixtures. I don't have any 3/4" TC fittings of clamps but I do have loads of threaded stuff. Not sure if I'll need to use it or not but at least I can cap it to prevent heat loss via that port.

 

[Hangover68]

About the only add on i would like to make to my home made electric brew kettle is a re-circulation pump, i just bought a mesh grain basket from cheaky peak on clearance sale so the bag is gone otherwise i don't see any value in these electric all in one units.
One thing i need to get back working on is a 70ltr asian noodle cooker i picked up during covid for free but it needs a 15a socket( converted to10a for now) to make use of the 3 elements, i then i can do double split batches.
Also just built a 6x6m shed so will be making a dedicated are for brewing.

 

[Unslaven]

I have the manifold, the sparge arm, and the vorlauf fitting.

The manifold is still in plastic. If it floated it would work for me, but not sitting on the bed.

The sparge arm I used 3 times before deciding it wasn't worth the extra cleaning. Because flow rate was so low, I found it just dribbled during sparge anyway, got clogged easily so couldn't be used for vorlauf, and sat too high above most grain beds thus caused channelling. Its still attached to the vessel, so I might try it again.

The vorlauf fitting basically lives in place and gets used for everything except when I swap it to a spray ball, and TBH it kind of works for that anyway. Its not perfect for sparge, but it's not much worse than the others.

I wouldn't worry about the extras just yet. they're nice to haves, but far from essential. A simple silicone hose with or without holes punched through it is fine. just lay it atop the bed.

Also please make sure you got my late added info above about vessel implosion. Its seriously a thing.

 

[livo]

About the only add on i would like to make to my home made electric brew kettle is a re-circulation pump, i just bought a mesh grain basket from cheaky peak on clearance sale so the bag is gone otherwise i don't see any value in these electric all in one units.
One thing i need to get back working on is a 70ltr asian noodle cooker i picked up during covid for free but it needs a 15a socket( converted to10a for now) to make use of the 3 elements, i then i can do double split batches.
Also just built a 6x6m shed so will be making a dedicated are for brewing.

I looked at those baskets.

 

[livo]

I have the manifold, the sparge arm, and the vorlauf fitting.

The manifold is still in plastic. If it floated it would work for me, but not sitting on the bed.

The sparge arm I used 3 times before deciding it wasn't worth the extra cleaning. Because flow rate was so low, I found it just dribbled during sparge anyway, got clogged easily so couldn't be used for vorlauf, and sat too high above most grain beds thus caused channelling. Its still attached to the vessel, so I might try it again.

The vorlauf fitting basically lives in place and gets used for everything except when I swap it to a spray ball, and TBH it kind of works for that anyway. Its not perfect for sparge, but it's not much worse than the others.

I wouldn't worry about the extras just yet. they're nice to haves, but far from essential. A simple silicone hose with or without holes punched through it is fine. just lay it atop the bed.

Also please make sure you got my late added info above about vessel implosion. Its seriously a thing.

Yes. I read that and paid close attention. Thanks again. The thing I found good about dealing SsBT Aust (Gary) was that he actually didn't try to convince me to buy extra stuff. Quite the opposite, but I thought the Sparge Arm would be useful. Maybe not. The Vorlauf fitting is available separately, but I thought it was better value to get the recirc kit. Maybe not. Well, it is better value than the sum of the components, but is it required? From what you say, probably not.

 

[livo]

So now a grain mill! MashMaster fluted ($400) or MaltMuncher knurled 2 Roller ($86) or 3 Roller ($162)? I know which is the better machine, but the question is, does the 2-roller knurled unit do the job? Because you can buy nearly 5 of them or 2 of the 3-roller model for near the price of 1 fluted roller unit.

I know where I can possibly get a Mashmaster for $250 not far from home, maybe less if I haggle, but it still raises the same question. Plus, I don't know how much use it's had or if it's been looked after. Does it matter?

How many of you are using the $86 item? Does it do the job?

 

[Unslaven]

I'm still on whatever the cheapest kegland/king one is. It came to me well used. I made a larger hopper for it, which made it much more usable. The mill works fine except the times that it doesn't. Hasn't got stuck in the last 50kg though. Gap setting has not changed in 4 years, and my utilisation efficiency is about 95%, and im not having trouble with stuck mashes. Seems fine to me. Nothing about this is best practice.

If I was going to upgrade, I'd be looking for automation, but for the price of a spike I could employ a child from down the street, and pay for ubers to and from their house.

I can't get excited about a mill. Maybe I should buy a set of grist seives to show me how bad my grind is.

 

[livo]

I'm still on whatever the cheapest kegland/king one is. It came to me well used. I made a larger hopper for it, which made it much more usable. The mill works fine except the times that it doesn't. Hasn't got stuck in the last 50kg though. Gap setting has not changed in 4 years, and my utilisation efficiency is about 95%, and im not having trouble with stuck mashes. Seems fine to me. Nothing about this is best practice.

If I was going to upgrade, I'd be looking for automation, but for the price of a spike I could employ a child from down the street, and pay for ubers to and from their house.

I can't get excited about a mill. Maybe I should buy a set of grist seives to show me how bad my grind is.

Question answered. Thank you once again. I'll order one tomorrow.

 

[Grok]

So now a grain mill! MashMaster fluted ($400) or MaltMuncher knurled 2 Roller ($86) or 3 Roller ($162)? I know which is the better machine, but the question is, does the 2-roller knurled unit do the job? Because you can buy nearly 5 of them or 2 of the 3-roller model for near the price of 1 fluted roller unit.

I know where I can possibly get a Mashmaster for $250 not far from home, maybe less if I haggle, but it still raises the same question. Plus, I don't know how much use it's had or if it's been looked after. Does it matter?

How many of you are using the $86 item? Does it do the job?

I have had a cheapy 2 roller for years and it works fine, but I did upgrade from a drill to a nice motor drive kit from KegKing, never looked back, it is worth the $ for that mill motor kit, eveything in it you need and you'll never have rpm trouble again, just make up a base plate and a bit of simple wiring and good to go. Also good idea to use "malt conditioning" method, then you don't need to use rice hulls etc.

 

[Hangover68]

I got a used 2 roller mill and added a motor and belt drive from a bread maker, both were free and it works great.

 

[livo]

I've found something that will do the job more than adequately (I think). A little bit more than I'd hoped to pay but it is, once again, better than I thought I'd ever own (I think). Picking up on Thursday after my regular appointment at the Skin Cancer Clinic.

 

[livo]

Weight. I have the 20 gal SSBT MT. Its heavy. When full of wet grain, even a 7kg grain bill, I can't (shouldn't) lift it. SSBT don't seem to post the weights of these products anywhere, but I guarantee you'll be surprised, even with the 10 gal. More than likely it contributed to your shipping cost.

It arrived yesterday with a shipping weight on the box of 19 kg. You aren't wrong it stating that it's heavy. Wow, and that's only the 10 kg model.

 

[Ballaratguy]

It arrived yesterday with a shipping weight on the box of 19 kg. You aren't wrong it stating that it's heavy. Wow, and that's only the 10 kg model.

I’ve got the awesome fluted mill and wouldn’t ever (not that I’d have to) consider a knurled mill

 

[bloombrews]

I have had a cheapy 2 roller for years and it works fine, but I did upgrade from a drill to a nice motor drive kit from KegKing, never looked back, it is worth the $ for that mill motor kit, eveything in it you need and you'll never have rpm trouble again, just make up a base plate and a bit of simple wiring and good to go. Also good idea to use "malt conditioning" method, then you don't need to use rice hulls etc.
View attachment 125112

I have the same setup, but can't emagine putting the stand on top of the MT, and risking it falling off while I dump grains into the hopper?
How do you keep that disaster from happening?
Nice Equipment!

 

[Grok]

I have the same setup, but can't emagine putting the stand on top of the MT, and risking it falling off while I dump grains into the hopper?
How do you keep that disaster from happening?
Nice Equipment!

Ah...not sure what you mean, it's not on a stand, it's simply mounted onto a ply base plate with a few handles!
I either place it over a bucket with another bucket upside down along side for support, or it can be placed on top of the converted 65L digiboil, and as it's a bigger circumference, it supports itself.
I haven't done it that way for a while, but if using that method, then the fresh milled grain falls gently straight into the dry malt pipe, then you fill from bottom up with pumped strike water to desired level, works quite well, haven't had any dry clumps doing it that way yet.

 

[livo]

I've answered my own original question today. The answer is no.
Have I just made some nice beer from scratch? Probably.

Is it worth the time, effort and energy? No way.

If you have heaps of time and like playing with beer stuff, knock yourself out.

Is the beer better than kit beer? Maybe.

Based upon what I've done this afternoon, I've got some really good brand new equipment for sale.

Edit: OK. Over reaction. Allow me to explain. I actually had a fairly successful run but not without large amounts of frustration. First thing I need to do is lock the door and put a big Do Not Disturb sign up. Secondly, I really think I'm going to struggle with 10 amp power. Yesterday I did a small pilot run using my old re-assembled mash tun and what I thought should have taken me about 4 hours ended up taking 7.5 hours for these 2 reasons.

 

[livo]

After I assess what actually happened yesterday, I'll post some numbers. It was an interesting experience to say the least, ranging from this is going well, to making changes on the fly and avoiding complete loss.

The first thing I'll say is that I had to make a late decision to no chill the boiled wort. I simply didn't have the option to use the immersion chiller as I'd intended.

 

[blacktop™]

The results from All grain brewing is 100% better than kit brewing.

Don’t let some frustrations from your first batch get you down. It gets better with each batch…trust me

Each batch you do you’re able to know your equipment that little bit better and able to better predict the outcome.

Btw, 4 hours is very optimistic. It might be possible on some systems but the reality is it’s probably 4 hours from mashing in but at that point you’ve already spent 90 mins heating your strike water, preparing your water additions and crushing your grain.

 

[livo]

I know and thanks for the encouragement. I should have expected it, and I guess it's why I did do a test run, or at least one reason of a few. I have done AG before, but it has been a while. I only made a baby brew to put in a small FV I have, so heating the strike water and then sparge water while the mash was on didn't really add a lot of time. Multiple interruptions aren't a great thing to deal with when you're trying to run on a schedule, but the biggest hold up by far was the boil. Luckily for me, the longest interruption occurred after I'd collected the sparge but before I started to boil, so I had to let it sit for a while. This didn't really do any damage, but it allowed it to cool down somewhat, before the boil. Everything had gone pretty well up to that point.

I used my big 40 litre pot which sits on both elements of a benchtop cooker. With both elements on full it took ages to go from collection to a boil, even with the lid on. This is partly because it lost some heat but mainly because the elements just didn't have the oomph. After it finally reached a boil, nearly, it just didn't really do it. I will definitely need to use gas in future. I could not get it to go into a gentle rolling boil with the lid off. It didn't foam up at all and aside from the size of the pot, there was no chance of a boil over. The wort was moving and swirling around in the pot and there was steam. I noticed the hot break occur, but I just did not get the boil off rate that I expected and consequently I've ended up with a post boil volume which is more than I should have.

What is surprising about this though, is that even with the additional volume, my gravity is still higher than it should have ended up and I even forgot to include the Cane Sugar that was meant to go into the boil. I will have to work out my efficiency, but it appears to have been quite exceptional for this to have occurred. I'll put some numbers up soon.

All of the new gear is still in the boxes, and I think I'll leave it there until I do a few runs with my old MT. I'm just not sure my energy input is going to match the bigger vessels.

When the guys brewing on Youtube say that you should drink Home Brew while making Home Brew, they need to be more specific about how much you should consume. With my extended time frame, I may have missed the cutoff a little bit. This probably didn't help matters or my mental capacity at the time.

 

[Dave70]

A three ring LP burner will run you less than 100 bucks and more than get the job done.
There's a host of reasons why we boil wort.
A gentle simmer isn't going to cut it.
Why not get that sorted first instead of fretting over fifty thousand other things?

My rule of thumb is no drinkies until after the last hop addition.
Though its more a 'guideline'.

Except in winter, when a Hot Scotchie or several is perfectly acceptable replacement for that mid morning coffee.

 

[Hangover68]

Been getting by on 10a for about 5 years using a 2200w single element in my home made brew kettle, i don't see what your issue is.

 

[livo]

Already have the 3 ring and 2 ring burners already Dave. I just thought the stove with both elements on full would do for a brew that was only intended to put 12 litres into a little FV. Turns out my Fermenter volume is 2 litres over at 14. I knew it just wasn't boiling hard enough.

I wasn't using a 2200 watt element. It was the top elements of a benchtop oven. I'm not sure what they are rated at, but it wasn't enough obviously.

There is nothing extraordinary about my numbers but I'm pretty pleased with the efficiency as it was pretty much on target for the calculated Brew House efficiency of 75%. I think it will be OK after all my whinging and over-reaction. This morning, I put the 14 litres into another pot, added the 180 g of Cane Sugar that was meant to go in yesterday and heated it up to 70'C, held it there for 15 minutes and No-Chilled it again, this time directly into the FV. I'll pitch the US-05 when its cooled down later today.

With the sugar, I've ended up with an OG of 1.037 instead of 1.041 but I can live with that. The full 2 litre difference isn't all from failing to boil off sufficiently. My mash Tun loss is only 0.6 litres instead of 0.9 and I measured my kettle loss at 1.8 instead of 1.9 - 2.0, so there's an extra 500 ml.

 

[TwoCrows]

I missed something, you did a stove top? I thought you had collated all the bells and whistles. Thats why you had a hard day of it.

 

[livo]

Sorry for the confusion TwoCrows.

Yes, I have pretty new gear capable of up to 35 or 40 odd litre batches, but I'm not 100 % set up to run it. I am building an area and it's not ready yet. I thought I would run a small test batch, only 12 litres to the FV, to
a) check that the malts I have are still OK as I have no idea how old they are, (Tick. They are apparently fine.)
b) test out the grain mill to see what the grind is like, (Tick. Maybe a little too fine but I didn't get a stuck mash and had good conversion.)
c) get my feet back in the water so to speak. (Fail. But not all my fault. Well, being half pissed towards the end was.)
d) make some Tooheys Old clone and see how it turns out. (Undecided but it seems to be OK at this point.)
e) among other things, like I just wanted to.

I'm glad I did, as it presented a few shortfalls and areas that need to be addressed before I try to make bigger batches.

I have used this same benchtop oven with elements on top before, but I used 2 smaller boil pots. Yesterday I used 1 big one with a very heavy base that sat over both elements. It didn't work very well but I think the brew will still be OK, and it doesn't really matter if it isn't.

 

[Unslaven]

Sounds like a typical brew day. Timelines often don't got to plan. It's one of the reasons I like to do multi brews on a single day, as a very long day in my head with 2-3 brews is better than a long day with 1, but yes, AG takes time. If you can turn over a single brew day in 4 hours then please teach me. My standard single batch processes add up to that without factoring in temperature ramping or transfers.

I certainly wouldn't call this a fail. Sounds like you re/learned a lot and tested a lot of gear.
Hopefully your 1.037 old clone will be better suited to keeping your head on your next brew day.

 

[livo]

Good to hear and gives me hope that I wasn't completely out of my depth. Yes, I did re/learn a lot. I agree that 4 hours was overly optimistic especially as it was a 90 minute boil and 110 minute soak. As for the 1.037, I wasn't sure what to do with it. I considered adding a little extra fermentable sugar or LDME to it yesterday or returning it to some heat to boil off the extra 2 litres. I decided to just let it go as is after adding the stated amount of sugar, being a tiny amount anyway. I was happy with the mash and extraction and I'm fairly sure that the 1.037 at 14 litres would have been close to target with the additional 1.5 - 2 litres evaporated off.

 

[MHB]

1.037*14 = X*12
Remember that the 1.000 part is nonunitary so wont work in equations; so use either 0.037, work in Plato (8.5 oP) or as many do work in, or "Points" and call it 37,
37*14=X*12 rearrange (37*14)/12=43.16
Boil off 2 litres and your gravity would have been 1.043.
Basis brewmaths but very handy
Mark