Polyclar As A Kettle Addition

[Bribie G]

The reason that Australian commercial brews don't get chill haze is that they filter the guts out of every drop of them and have done so since the early 20th century. I would imagine that even Coopers does so before re-inoculating for the bottle condition.

However the use of finings such as Polyclar has long been used in non filtered beers such as UK real ales. I quote from my new book "brew your own British Real Ales"

Auxiliary finings are optional post fermentation finings that are used in conujnction with insinglass finings to produce brilliant clarity in cask conditiond beers, but they must not be added at the same time as isinglass. Auxiliary finings make particles in the beer negatively charged, however when the isinglass, which is positively charged, is added, all the particles are attracted to it, becoming heavy enough to drop of of suspension.

They don't mention PPVT as such but obviously it's the same category of finings and in the case of the Uk ales they aren't using it for chill haze as such. I know that Buttersd70, as an example, uses Polyclar in his ales for long term stability not chill haze.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

TB, I am wondering about that? Whilst the polyphenols are clumped as haze would it work better at precipitating the haze??

cheers

Darren

That's the thing Darren, people are so used to the idea of clarifiers which precipitate or flocculate formed haze, that they assume that PVPP works that way too. PVPP doesn't do that, it absorbs the polyphenol compounds themselves at a molecular level (I don't pretend to understand the actual chemistry - hydrogen bonds I think) onto its surface. Thus the reason that the smaller, higher surface area powders work more efficiently. This prevents the haze forming in the first place. Its not there to precipitate anything.

I'm not saying the stuff doesn't work at lower temperatures, and it might well work "better" at lower temperatures, it might even, as you say, be able to grab the polyphenols out of pre-formed haze particles even more effectively - dont know. But it certainly doesn't need the haze to have already been formed for it to work.

Bribie - you aren't quite right. Chill haze can and does still happily form in commercial filtered beer. As I mentioned, chillhaze is a product of the coming together of proteins and polyphenols at lower temperatures. It doesn't all happen at once, and it goes away at higher temperatures. You can filter out chill haze, but the beer has to be cold enough for long enough, for it to have formed haze particles big enough to be captured by the filter.

Big breweries (or at least mine) don't get chill haze because they do everything we have talked about - isinglass, cold storage, filtering, PVPP, silica xerogel and anti haze enzymes like Papain. Sometimes all of it to the same beer.

You wouldn't use PVPP in a traditional ale... not cold enough for chill haze to form anyway. The traditional finings for cask ales is Isinglass which (as Gryphon mentioned) also acts on chill haze AND is a clarifier for yeast haze... so would have taken care of any minor occurrence. Like Butters, you might use it to stop the formation of permanent haze and to stave of aged flavours in long term beers.

Traditional lagers of course ... just let it fall to the bottom of the keg during lagering.

no one "needs" pvpp... it just makes things faster and easier. It does nothing that you cant do with time, temperature and care.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Time for an update.

The first beer I tried this on was also cube-hopped and, I have to admit, is a sensationally average-tasting brew. However, it is the clearest beer I've ever made after just a few weeks from pitching yeast. I've made clearer beers, but only with a long wait.

I've got one or two more lined up that I've treated this way and I think I might keep doing it - at least until I run out of PVPP and have to make a purchase decision. Certainly a house beer will be getting the treatment to confirm/deny goodness/badness.

(If ISPCorp are going to send me a sample, I am yet to receive it, but that could be because they are mailing it to me slooooowly.)

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Time for an update.

The first beer I tried this on was also cube-hopped and, I have to admit, is a sensationally average-tasting brew. However, it is the clearest beer I've ever made after just a few weeks from pitching yeast. I've made clearer beers, but only with a long wait.

I've got one or two more lined up that I've treated this way and I think I might keep doing it - at least until I run out of PVPP and have to make a purchase decision. Certainly a house beer will be getting the treatment to confirm/deny goodness/badness.

(If ISPCorp are going to send me a sample, I am yet to receive it, but that could be because they are mailing it to me slooooowly.)

Like wise I have done a few trials but to early to call at this stage, I did notice a bit more non floc ( Less jelly fish type) in the kettle which I cant explain, may be it doesn't drop as well as Whirl floc. But will report my results when they become apparent. I am expecting some PVPP carry over to the secondary .BTW I'm using normal PVPP.
GB

 

[Bribie G]

Bumping this thread to see what's the latest on actually getting my hands on some BrewBrite? And how did your various trials go so far, for example Gryphon Brewing? After a chill haze monster American Amber that I forgot to Polyclar in Secondary I'm keen to look at ways of brightening up all my brews.

 

[Ross]

Bumping this thread to see what's the latest on actually getting my hands on some BrewBrite? And how did your various trials go so far, for example Gryphon Brewing? After a chill haze monster American Amber that I forgot to Polyclar in Secondary I'm keen to look at ways of brightening up all my brews.

Bribie,

Register on the ISP's websitwe site & they'll send you a complimentary sample if you request it.

cheers Ross

 

[Bribie G]

Thanks Ross, I'll do that and if I get a sample I might do a side by side with Brewbrite vs a cocktail of Whirlfloc and Polyclar in the kettle. I'm doing a few side by sides with identical recipes lately (Camerons Strongarm 60 mins vs 90 mins hops - Australian Standard Lager made on W 34/70 vs Mauri Lager etc) so one more side by side won't do any harm

 

[BeerSwiller]

Hi all,I've used polyclar VT from craftbrewer for a while now... But I might ditch the rehydrating for and hour and just sprinkle on the top when cold conditioning
One question though... I went out to a local brewery and they gave me some 'polyclar' which they said they use in the kettle... When I got it home it's a cream colour compared to the craftbrewer VT type.... I'm not sure what type of polyclar it is because I thought it was all the same stuff... Any polyclar should work ok for chill haze?

 

[MHB]

PVPP is an engineered product, made for specific jobs like lubricating oil; perfectly good gearbox oil would be death on a petrol engine, its good gearbox oil and crap engine oil.
There are lots of versions of PVPP and lots of mixtures of PVPP and other products designed to do specific jobs.
The Kettle version is Brew Bright a blend of PVPP and K-Carrageenan does the job of Whirlfloc/kopafloc/Irish moss and binds chill haze proteins in the kettle.
The post fermentation treatment version most used in brewing is 70/30 a blend of PVPP and Silica Xerogel. Again it tackles two jobs the PVPP takes out Polyphenols and the Xerogel takes out high molecular weight proteins.
The granular or just finely powdered PVPP is I believe mostly used in wine making to remove polyphenols that cause pinking in white wine. Doubtless it works to some extent but you would I believe be better off choosing the version made for the job you are doing.
MHB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Hi all,I've used polyclar VT from craftbrewer for a while now... But I might ditch the rehydrating for and hour and just sprinkle on the top when cold conditioning
One question though... I went out to a local brewery and they gave me some 'polyclar' which they said they use in the kettle... When I got it home it's a cream colour compared to the craftbrewer VT type.... I'm not sure what type of polyclar it is because I thought it was all the same stuff... Any polyclar should work ok for chill haze?

if they use it in the kettle its most likely Polyclar Brewbrite. which is the combination of polyclar and carageenan MHB mentioned (brewbrite is cream coloured rather than white)

You can search it out in discussions on this forum and its available from HB shops including some of the site sponsors. I use something on the order of 10-12g in the kettle, rehydrated for 15mins or so before hand in cold water - add at 10mins to go in the boil. a VERY effective kettle coagulant and also reduces or eliminates chill haze in the final beer.

TB

 

[Charst]

if they use it in the kettle its most likely Polyclar Brewbrite. which is the combination of polyclar and carageenan MHB mentioned (brewbrite is cream coloured rather than white)

You can search it out in discussions on this forum and its available from HB shops including some of the site sponsors. I use something on the order of 10-12g in the kettle, rehydrated for 15mins or so before hand in cold water - add at 10mins to go in the boil. a VERY effective kettle coagulant and also reduces or eliminates chill haze in the final beer.

TB

The G&G Pack I have states 4g per 23 L Batch, non rehydrated at 10 minutes.
Whats the rational behind using 3X the prescribed dosage? Isn't there a risk of overdosing the coagulant?
( I added a full irish moss tab to my first AG and the protein never settled so I've been frightened ever since)
and whats the advantage of rehydrating it prior to adding to boil?

 

[BeerSwiller]

Hmm... Well it was a cream colour so maybe it is brewbrite.... Ive had about 60g of VT and now 60g of what may be brewbrite which are now mixed together...
Although not ideal, I still shouldn't have any problems sprinkling eg. 9g onto a 25lt secondary?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The G&G Pack I have states 4g per 23 L Batch, non rehydrated at 10 minutes.
Whats the rational behind using 3X the prescribed dosage? Isn't there a risk of overdosing the coagulant?
( I added a full irish moss tab to my first AG and the protein never settled so I've been frightened ever since)
and whats the advantage of rehydrating it prior to adding to boil?

I found it ineffective at that dose, and besides, my pack didn't come with instructions. Its kettle coagulant properties were just fine at lower doses, but i didn't find it was doing the job on the chill haze.

But of the instructions say 4g per batch - thats what i reccomend you start with at least. Re-hydration?? well, both carageenan and PVPP need to be rehydrated before they work - they'll both domitin the kettle just fine, but brewbrite forms (or at least it does in my kettle) evil lumps that dont disperse properly. Mix it up in some cold water till its a runny paste, and then tip it in. The results are both spectactular, and spectacularly fast... no lumps.

Hmm... Well it was a cream colour so maybe it is brewbrite.... Ive had about 60g of VT and now 60g of what may be brewbrite which are now mixed together...
Although not ideal, I still shouldn't have any problems sprinkling eg. 9g onto a 25lt secondary?

dunno - you've mixed a product thats used in the kettle with one thats used in the fermentor....

mmm, it'll be OK i guess, but make sure that if you are using gelatin or isinglass to clear your yeast, that you do it well in advance of the polyclar addition, maybe even preferrable to rack away from your yeast cake before you add it. Or visa versa. The gelatin and the carageenan wont get on well together and will either do something evil and gooey, or just cancel each other out. Maybe better to add the mix as a kettle finings rather than a post fermentation finings.

 

[BeerSwiller]

Thanks TB,

I don't use any other finings, I crash chill, add polyclar, then filter..
I guess I could just add to the kettle, probably have to use a little more as its a 50/50mix of two different products.. but not sure now.. F*ck!

Maybe it might be best to just dump the 120G of 'polyclar' i have and just grab some more either brewbrite or VT?

wish i hadn't thrown them both in the same container!

Edit:
I might just go the safer method and add to the kettle.... with a 50/50 mix, should i just add 10g per 25L batch or more?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thanks TB,

I don't use any other finings, I crash chill, add polyclar, then filter..
I guess I could just add to the kettle, probably have to use a little more as its a 50/50mix of two different products.. but not sure now.. F*ck!

Maybe it might be best to just dump the 120G of 'polyclar' i have and just grab some more either brewbrite or VT?

wish i hadn't thrown them both in the same container!

hell no, dont toss it.

I'd use them in the kettle, then you might well find you dont need polyclar in the fermenter in the first place - but aside from the gelatin/isinglass thing, they should be fine in the fermenter too. The worst that will happen is that they'll do sod all and you'll filter them out anyway.

 

[BeerSwiller]

Okay, Thanks Thirsty..

Im just about at the end of a brew I'm boiling at the moment, ill rehydrate 10g up and throw in at 10min mark..
I also have a CPA that ive got still in the fermenter fridge.. ill wait till thats at FG then if my Polyclar VT hasn't arrived from CB which i just ordered, ill add 10g to that and filter..

Thanks for your time and help TB..

Much appreciated..

 

[BeerSwiller]

Just as an update, I rehydrated 10g of the 50/50 VT/Brewbrite Polyclar I had and added @ 10min left in the boil.... I grabbed a small amount of wort and put in the fridge to 2c.... No Chill Haze, Crystal Clear Wort

Thanks TB, I was going to toss this... thanks for you advice

 

[supertonio]

Just wanted to revive this thread cause it's something I've been thinking about.

Unfortunately i I cannot get brewbrite in Scotland as the only distributor in the uk sells it as 20 kg bags only which is slightly surplus to my requirement.

A guy I spoke to said I could formulate my own with protafloc and polyclar, of which I have both, and could use this as a pseudo brewbrite in the kettle.

In regards to this thread did anyone have any success/failure using polyclar in the kettle or do you think I may be able to make my own brewbrite successfully.

 

[Mardoo]

Give it a go on a small test batch. If you work out how to make your own brewbrite that'll be homebrewing gold. This may be a good question for the Brew Strong Q&A shows.

 

[Eagleburger]

Chill haze and head or neither... my experience with brewbrite used as prescribed.

If I dont chill before keg I get wonderful foam and head retention, but also chillhaze. If I chill the fermenter before kegging I get bright beer, but no head, not a bubble. Bottles also the same.

Anyone care to comment