Poll: PH testing

[Hopsta]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I’ve had the unfortunate experience of having to tip the past 6 batches of brew into the garden. it’s been doing my head in as to what’s causing the off flavour. it’s been the same flavour and mouthfeel each time slightly astringent, complete loss of all hop aroma, weird bitterness. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]my thoughts jumped immediately to suspect and infection. after 5 batches, lots of fastidious cleaning, some replacement equipment and a number of months later... i have another dodgee batch in the fermenter. im ruling out infection and am almost positive its a PH issue.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]ive been AG brewing for years and never bothered to check PH, ive used 3 vessel systems, a grainfather and am now on a braumeister. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]i ask the forum, how many of you AG brewers bother to check PH? i never thought of it as mandatory for a good outcome.... although now i think im paying the price. time to invest in a PH meter i think.[/SIZE]

 

[Benn]

You mention you've been All Grain Brewing for a number of years (with good results presumably) have you recently changed your source water? i.e for the last 5 batches,

 

[Yob]

I really only check these days if it's an out of the ordinary brew, new recipe or some such..

used to do it every batch but just cant be arsed now, it's always pretty damn close to 5.2 every time I check

 

[Mardoo]

FWIW I had a pH meter, used it regularly, calibrating every brew. After 18 months it needed a new electrode, but I was finding Bru'n Water was giving me estimations that were no more than 0.1 points out, and usually spot on. I decided not to get another electrode. Beers have been coming out fine. However, when I am able, I plan to get a quality meter towards the top of the handheld range.

 

[Hopsta]

You mention you've been All Grain Brewing for a number of years (with good results presumably) have you recently changed your source water? i.e for the last 5 batches,

yeah great results for many years. always used sydney water north prospect source, soft water.

im considering trying some distilled water.

 

[evoo4u]

I've done only about 30 AG brews, and started using a pH meter about half way through. It was an eye-opener, as my mashs to that time would have been well under 5.0 using rainwater from a BHP 'AquaPlate' tank (plastic lining on corrugated steel) - very soft, bugger-all minerals, ideal neutral water to start with as it turns out.

So my typical mash needs baking soda to lift the pH, whereas probably most brewers would be using lactic acid or acidified malt to bring it down within the required range. I'm investigating making Calcium Hydroxide to raise the pH, to avoid adding all the Sodium from baking soda. Can you buy Calcium Hydroxide in Oz?

Anyway, whether it's getting the pH right, or going HERMS, or cracking the grain just right, my efficiency has improved, and the beers are tasting good, but getting the pH in the right range is a good first step!

 

[WarmerBeer]

Bought a decent quality hand held meter. Used it 5 times, all mashes at 5.2 pH, within margin of error. It now sits in my cupboard collecting dust and expiring the electrode.
One of the most useless purchases I've ever made for brewing purposes.

 

[PommyIan]

It sounds like you've had a similar issue to what I had been experiencing, and it was pH related. I kept getting this very harsh bitterness which I thought was not from hops but from Tannin's from the grain. I did some reading and understood during sparging if the pH got above 5.8/6.0 you can extract tannin's form the grain.
So next brew I checked and sure enough my pH during sparging was 6.0 (the brew was a simple Pale Ale)

I'm looking at acidifying my sparge water next time or possibly adjusting my water / grist ratio as that I sparge with less water.

Definitely use a pH meter in my view, but keep it calibrated - buy some buffer solutions.

Hope this helps

 

[TheWiggman]

There should be an option for "No, but I make adjustments anyway"
I add brewing salts on the basis of Bru'n Water spreadsheet as per Mardoo but I don't take mash pH measurements (measure water from time to time using a dropper kit). No you can't control what you don't measure and I'm not going to pretend my approach is the best, but I work off sound assumptions and thus far have achieved good results. Were I measuring pH I'd get better results.

Also change the title to 'pH' not 'PH' to satisfy the needs of my inner perfectionist, perfectionism of which should be better focussed on knowing exactly what my mash pH is rather than assuming.

 

[MHB]

I would be surprised if the pH of tap water would make beer undrinkable. Much more likely to be an infection or a process issue (too hot sparge water - not too likely on a BM).
pH is an important control parameter. Hygiene and temperature probably more so unless your water is obscenely high in carbonates.
Mark

 

[GalBrew]

A little off topic, but why not bang out a quick kit beer? If it comes out ok, you can eliminate infection as the problem. If you use your tap water, that will also let you know if it's an issue.

 

[Hopsta]

I would be surprised if the pH of tap water would make beer undrinkable. Much more likely to be an infection or a process issue (too hot sparge water - not too likely on a BM).
pH is an important control parameter. Hygiene and temperature probably more so unless your water is obscenely high in carbonates.
Mark

Thanks Mark, i'm pretty careful with my temp measurements and have a quality digi pen thermometer to test sparge water temps. My last sparge was 8.5 litres into the 20lt BM to achievce a 30.25lt boil volume. I'm not sure thats even enough sparge water to extract tannins but happy to be corrected?

I know nothing about reading water analysis but have attached them below if there are any people here knowledgeable in that area?

I dont think i can handle tipping another batch out!! :unsure:

 

[scomet]

Hello Hopsta - Sorry to hear about the 6 batches that would hurt.

I just bought a decent Milwaukee Ph meter and checked my last brew and to my surprise the mash Ph was 5.9 notwithstanding this I thought the beer tasted great, but it could explain my low efficiencies, my next batch will be RO ++

Your local water source could have upgraded their water plant and started using chloramines I just bought an RO unit from here for that reason https://www.psifilters.com.au great service.

You could try getting some RO, fish tank places sell it and put in a tsp of calcium chloride and acidulated malt, or run 50% RO.

Pouring beer in the garden seriously hurts… good luck

 

[MHB]

Well it doesn't look to bad, about the only concern would be the Chloramines, nasty stuff, you might get rid of it by adding a touch of Sodium/Potassium Metabisulphite.
A bit of extra Calcium (100ppm) wouldn't go astray, add as Chloride or Sulphate or a mix as desired, both are really low.

From what you have said I would look at the Chloramines first, well second infection first.
Mark

 

[Coalminer]

When looking at water reports I notice a big variation in concentrations - ie 10th - 90th percentile
Should these ranges be averaged out? for example above - Calcium hardness 30 - 40
Could I assume the value to use would be 35?

 

[Hopsta]

A little off topic, but why not bang out a quick kit beer? If it comes out ok, you can eliminate infection as the problem. If you use your tap water, that will also let you know if it's an issue.

Not off topic at all, in fact i bought a kit beer 2 brews ago for that very reason... the thought of then feeling obliged to actually drink it puts me off and i get super confident that ive nailed the problem and go back to AG. Time to swallow to my pride in the interests of getting to the bottom of the issue. I'll chuck the kit in the fermenter today!

Well it doesn't look to bad, about the only concern would be the Chloramines, nasty stuff, you might get rid of it by adding a touch of Sodium/Potassium Metabisulphite.
A bit of extra Calcium (100ppm) wouldn't go astray, add as Chloride or Sulphate or a mix as desired, both are really low.

From what you have said I would look at the Chloramines first, well second infection first.
Mark

Thanks for taking a look at that. To hell with the Reinheitsgebot!! I've got a shopping list that would make the Germans shudder!

PH Meter
5.2 PH Stabiliser powder
Potassium Metabisulphite
Calcium Chloride
Calcium Sulphate

Anything else i should add?

Super keen to beat this issue... i'll change brewing location next time too. Instead of outside on the back deck i'll brew indoors, hopefully eliminate possibilities of wild yeasts in the air etc...

 

[wobbly]

I've done only about 30 AG brews, and started using a pH meter about half way through. It was an eye-opener, as my mashs to that time would have been well under 5.0 using rainwater from a BHP 'AquaPlate' tank (plastic lining on corrugated steel)

If your rain water pH is below 5.0 then you are approaching "Acid Rain". Do you have a lot of heavy industry pollution close by?

I use rain water from the same type of tank and my pH is around 6.5.

 

[wobbly]

5.2 PH Stabiliser powder

Absolute waste of time and money as pointed out in this thread at HBT http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

Whilst this is very long topic thread the first couplf of pages are a very good staring point for understanding the basics of water management

wobbly

Also get your self a copy of Martin Bruingards water spread sheet. Do a search for "Bru'n Water". There are two versions one free and the other requiring a contribution around US$10 which is in my view well worth it

Wobbly

 

[Hopsta]

If your rain water pH is below 5.0 then you are approaching "Acid Rain". Do you have a lot of heavy industry pollution close by?

I use rain water from the same type of tank and my pH is around 6.5.

Its raining right now, i just went outside with a couple of pH strips and it looks to be in the high 5s to low 6s. No heavy industry around here.

 

[technobabble66]

At a quick glance and then at a northern Melbourne report that i use, i'd suggest your pH might be a problem.
It seems your pH is high & your total hardness is a fair bit higher than mine. So, as well as reducing mash efficiency, it'll extract tannins from your mash. Namely from your sparge step - the mash will probably be fine on the tannin front, but the sparge water has no sugars/solids to buffer (i.e.: prevent) the tannins from being extracted at higher pH's. Those tannins could be causing some weird bitterness & astringency.
No idea about those chloramine thingies - def something to avoid in your beer, so if MHB reckons you're high, i'd use the Metabisulfate.

However:
This doesn't explain the loss of hops aroma.
It also doesn't seem to explain what's happened in the last 5 beers compared to the previous few dozen - in theory, the water should be consistent.
So it all probably depends on what you've altered in the last 5-6 beers. Or if your water supplier has altered their supply (as mentioned above).
In the meantime, i'd fix your pH, especially of your sparge water.
So i'd add some Acidulated Malt onto your shopping list
2c

For the poll, i've checked my pH a few times and compared to the Bru'n Water spreadsheet estimate. Always within 0.03. Don't bother checking any more.
:icon_cheers:

EDIT: PS, i add ~0.3g Citric acid into my sparge (as well as salts) to ensure my ~18L is sufficiently acidic so i don't get tannin extraction. Going solely by empirical evidence, seems to work for me - done on the assumption 0.3g citric acid is too small in 25L beer to be noticeable if it's unnecessary, but is enough to temporarily drop the sparge pH to ~5.3(-ish).