New Oxygenation Method

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Yeah, sorry about that, but I don't know how fix it.

The Flickr page is mostly for bicycle pics: my son, who acts as my social media advisor,* says that anything that isn't bike related should be kept out of the main feed so as to keep it "on message". The only way I've found to do that is to keep the non-bike pics in a separate album and mark it as private.

FWIW I cut the pics down to 1000p before posting them to Flickr so there's not much more detail anyway.


*I think there are two things wrong with social media and they are "social" and "media". /scrooge.

 

[peteru]

No worries.

FWIW, I agree with the footnote.

 

[stewy]

Take it or leave it, your choice.

I developed this as a side issue from a commercial application in wine. I thought it was worth doing at this scale, in my opinion the advantages (ease, cleanliness, accuracy, safety, no consumables) outweigh the single disadvantage (time), especially as it's not like the wort is going anywhere for that extra hour or two.

I fully expect that there will be those who do not share that opinion.

You are correct, my choice.
I just want to give you honest feedback.

If you wish to scale this & make money from it you need to have a value proposition to appeal to the target market.

Usually this is achieved by lower cost/ease of use/simplification/reduced time; &/or a combination of all.

The fact that it takes at least one hour to oxygenate wort is your biggest roadblock.

Standard O2 setup costs $150-250
Storage space is a small footprint
1 Bunnings cylinder = $50 & does 35+ batches

I would ALWAYS spend my $$ with the AHB community & support them in their ventures & will happily do so with you, I just don’t see the value prop yet.

I genuinely hope to see you achieve great commercial success with this.
[emoji481][emoji481][emoji481]

 

[technobabble66]

Hey LC, any reason why you're using a circular cross section (ie: tube)?
Wouldn't a flat strip provide better surface area for the electrodes?
Or at least make the active electrode sections into flat strips?
It should enhance efficiency, I think.
So not like a flimsy tape, but like a 1-3mm thick rectangular cross section.

Also, is the glass section a significant cost addition? If so, I reckon it might be worth considering the hdpe option for the inert section. If not, doesn't matter. I appreciate the superiority of the glass surface, but hdpe should suffice if it adds significant cost.

 

[technobabble66]

Not knowing anything about the detail of the manufacturing process, would it be possible to consider, say, a stainless steel core, coat the bottom section with platinum & top section with ...(can't remember) then spray coat the bit in between with silicone rubber. So it's all like a (core) single piece (that's conductive) with different coatings resulting in the active areas divided by the inactive region.

 

[peteru]

The speed of oxygenation may not be a negative factor. Experimentation is required, but it is possible that a steady addition of oxygen over several hours may provide better results than a big hit up front with no follow up.

If we are throwing suggestions / ideas about, here's one thing that I have been pondering...

The production of oxygen will be localised to the electrode, however yeast will be distributed throughout the entire volume of the fermentation vessel. Will the natural diffusion be adequate to deliver the oxygen to enough yeast? Would it be a good idea to introduce some form of agitation to the system?

 

[malt junkie]

You are correct, my choice.
I just want to give you honest feedback.

If you wish to scale this & make money from it you need to have a value proposition to appeal to the target market.

Usually this is achieved by lower cost/ease of use/simplification/reduced time; &/or a combination of all.

The fact that it takes at least one hour to oxygenate wort is your biggest roadblock.

Standard O2 setup costs $150-250
Storage space is a small footprint
1 Bunnings cylinder = $50 & does 35+ batches

I would ALWAYS spend my $$ with the AHB community & support them in their ventures & will happily do so with you, I just don’t see the value prop yet.

I genuinely hope to see you achieve great commercial success with this.
[emoji481][emoji481][emoji481]

Beyond 35 batches with your current rig, your either buying a reserve bottle or hoping it don't run out on a public holiday. This thing is good for 30,000 batches. It has a smaller foot print. Both systems need the same treatment until they are placed in wort, with yours you'll fiddle with flow control and stand there for 2 minutes and if double dropping return in 12hrs and repeat, with this hooked up to a timer you'll turn on the power and go get a beer or several, remove the following day. If you can do the simple math you will never under or over O2 the wort.

ED: For all of us repeatability batch to batch, is the path to quality beer, this will provide that, the O2 set ups till now are a stab in the dark and waste full, I'd has at a guess half your bottle is going to atmosphere.

Not going you personally, I was about to drop some big coin on the large bunnings setup.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Hey LC, any reason why you're using a circular cross section (ie: tube)?
Wouldn't a flat strip provide better surface area for the electrodes?
Or at least make the active electrode sections into flat strips?
It should enhance efficiency, I think.
So not like a flimsy tape, but like a 1-3mm thick rectangular cross section.

Also, is the glass section a significant cost addition? If so, I reckon it might be worth considering the hdpe option for the inert section. If not, doesn't matter. I appreciate the superiority of the glass surface, but hdpe should suffice if it adds significant cost.

Not knowing anything about the detail of the manufacturing process, would it be possible to consider, say, a stainless steel core, coat the bottom section with platinum & top section with ...(can't remember) then spray coat the bit in between with silicone rubber. So it's all like a (core) single piece (that's conductive) with different coatings resulting in the active areas divided by the inactive region.

The circular cross section came about because the original use for these particular electrodes was in wine barrels so I made something that can be inserted through a standard MLF bung which has a 9mm hole in it. Larger electrodes will be flat.

Yes the glass section is expensive, both in raw material cost and in the amount of time it takes to assemble the thing. At Malt Junkie's suggestion I made a stainless one yesterday (see post #57) it seems to be working out so I will probably go that way.

No HDPE, max service temp is too low.

The platinising is a specialist process so there's a limit to what can be done and, more importantly, to what I can afford to have done

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

The speed of oxygenation may not be a negative factor. Experimentation is required, but it is possible that a steady addition of oxygen over several hours may provide better results than a big hit up front with no follow up.

If we are throwing suggestions / ideas about, here's one thing that I have been pondering...

The production of oxygen will be localised to the electrode, however yeast will be distributed throughout the entire volume of the fermentation vessel. Will the natural diffusion be adequate to deliver the oxygen to enough yeast? Would it be a good idea to introduce some form of agitation to the system?

I *think* you are correct that the slow addition is actually better but I don't yet have enough evidence to claim that.

It certainly helps when doing a second add during fermentation, a situation where I suspect stripping by the fermentation gas reduces the effectiveness of a gas O2 add greatly.

Diffusion appears to be adequate to distribute the oxygen, especially as most of the yeast at this early stage is at the bottom of the fermenter. It's also a self correcting problem: the yeast which receive the oxygen become more active, produce more gas and distribute themselves quite nicely.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

ED: For all of us repeatability batch to batch, is the path to quality beer, this will provide that, the O2 set ups till now are a stab in the dark and waste full, I'd has at a guess half your bottle is going to atmosphere.

.

More like 90%: see post # 695 in the oxygenation thread

 

[stewy]

Beyond 35 batches with your current rig, your either buying a reserve bottle or hoping it don't run out on a public holiday. This thing is good for 30,000 batches. It has a smaller foot print. Both systems need the same treatment until they are placed in wort, with yours you'll fiddle with flow control and stand there for 2 minutes and if double dropping return in 12hrs and repeat, with this hooked up to a timer you'll turn on the power and go get a beer or several, remove the following day. If you can do the simple math you will never under or over O2 the wort.

ED: For all of us repeatability batch to batch, is the path to quality beer, this will provide that, the O2 set ups till now are a stab in the dark and waste full, I'd has at a guess half your bottle is going to atmosphere.

Not going you personally, I was about to drop some big coin on the large bunnings setup.

Flow rate x time is a very simple equation, not a stab in the dark

Even fiddling around - 2 mins vs a minimum of 60? No contest for me

And yes, after 35 batches I am buying another O2 cylinder, for $50 or approx $1.20 per batch... for 1 minute oxygenation...

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Flow rate x time is a very simple equation, not a stab in the dark

I can't remember the exact equation, but something like (Flow rate x time x column height ) / (average bubble diameter^N * x bubble velocity) will give you an approximation of O2 that actually goes into the wort.

* This is the bit I can't remember, I think it's the 2/3 power.

BTW bubble diameter has almost nothing to do with pore size, it's related (via the Fritz equation) to the surface energies of the sinter surface, the gas and the wort, the last of which changes with composition. It's also worth noting that average bubble diameter and bubble velocity are not independent, the velocity is also a function of bubble diameter.

It has been shown in wine that the minimum column height for complete dissolution of a rising column of oxygen bubbles is between 2 and 6 metres, dependent mostly on the release surface, stainless sinters being at the high end of this range.

This is why commercial operations oxygenate after the HX when casting out, the turbulent mixing in the transfer hose serves to increase the dissolution rate.

 

[stewy]

(Flow rate x time x column height ) / (average bubble diameter ^2 x bubble velocity) will give you an approximation of O2 that actually goes into the wort. Anything else is a stab in the dark.

Sure.

My 60 second “stab in the dark” will yield approx 10-12 PPM.

I have the option to be more precise if I am willing to extend my 1 minute by at least 60 fold.

Do you honestly think a large enough segment of the HB community will buy this & make it economically viable? ( at a guess the vast majority don’t even use O2 currently)

Not being argumentative for the sake of it, highlighting what is likely a big roadblock for commercialisation.

If you’re happy to extend your O2 time by that much, go for it! I personally am pushed for time
[emoji481]

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

“Upgrade” or pro model suggestion - incorporate onto a 1.5” tri-clamp fitting for Chronical/conical users, could simply be two compression (Swagelok etc) type fitting to suit the stainless tubing or to avoid people damaging from overtightening just stainless electrical cable glands to grip the rods at the desired height. That way you don’t need to worry about the height each use if your volumes are the same every batch?

Awesome work by the way, I’m sure this will be taken up be a large numbers of home brewers!

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Sure.

Please note that I amended that equation as I realised that I couldn't remember all of it. I also took out the comment about the stab in the dark.

As for the time thing, as I said previously, take it or leave it.

I see it a bit like no chill: yes no-chill takes a lot longer than a wort chiller to get to pitch temperature but in practice it's actually easier.

 

[Dave70]

Does this system work along the same principle as a HHO generator? Though the units themselves are a complete scam and useless for their intended purpose, but actually do generate hydrogen and oxygen, I've wondered how effective they would be piped into your wort.
Did you investigate a 'remote' method like this before deciding to use the beer as a electrolytic cell?

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

This is an offshoot of a commercial application in wine, the idea from the get go was to use the medium as the electrolyte.

 

[Dave70]

But the decomposition of water into hydrogen / oxygen is more or less the same, yeah? Only in situ.

 

[pcqypcqy]

Not going you personally, I was about to drop some big coin on the large bunnings setup.

I too am now holding off on that, very interested in this development.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

But the decomposition of water into hydrogen / oxygen is more or less the same, yeah? Only in situ.

Yes.