Mashing at 2 temperatures at once - what happens?

[aamcle]

There is a system that seems likely to mash at 2 temperatures at once, I'd rather not name it as I may be wrong and its shiny and lovely !

Wort is constantly recirculated, kettle - tube - pump+ temp sensor - longer tube - mash tun and back to the kettle. As the tube (about 1.5 to 2 metres) does not seem to be insulated there will be a significant temperature drop between the kettle and the inlet to the mash tun.

Conversion will be occurring in the mash tun and as the wort is recirculating into the kettle its going to continue converting in the kettle.

Is it likely that the amount of conversion that occurs in the kettle will make any difference to the final beer?

As an example if the inflow to the mash tun is at 64°C the wort in the kettle might be at 68 or 70°C quite a bit hotter.

Even with the temp probe located a the pump its only an offset to get the temp into the mash tun right.

If its OK that the wort in the kettle is a few degrees hotter then its all good but it nags at me and I fancy this system.

What do you think, is it OK?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Aamcle

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Are you sure its converting in the kettle......

What system are you talking about...

 

[Blind Dog]

If it's shiny post pics

The only issue I can see is if the temperature difference is so high that you end up denaturing enzymes before you want to in the mash, or not fully denaturing at mash out. Once denatured by heat there's no going back - bit like cooking an egg

 

[Mardoo]

You could insulate the recirculation and return tubes if you want to be completely sure.

 

[stakka82]

Post is inconclusive. Two mash temps means more paying attention!

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I think OP might be a little off track...sounds more like a HERMS setup, in which the kettle temp is a little hotter than mash to take into account heat loss

 

[Bribie G]

If it gets too hot, just lift the bag for ten minutes.

 

[aamcle]

This is a commercially available system run by the manufacturers automated controls, its supposed to control itself once running. The control tower monitors the temperature constantly during mashing. The thermo probe is located down by the pump not in the kettle or at the wort return point.

If there is little or no conversion in the kettle then I'm just being a bit paranoid.

Atb. Aamcle

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

What is the product.,...give us more info than just a brief description

 

[aamcle]

OK have a look at this -

Blichmann BrewEasy Demonstration: http://youtu.be/3IhekEM71C8

It looks fantastic but the tubes are so long! There is an electric version as well as the one shown.

Aamcle

 

[Blind Dog]

I'll admit that I'm biased, but I don't really see why I'd want a two tier system with all the fittings etc to achieve the same result as a single vessel BM

But it is shiny, very shiny

 

[carniebrew]

You had me at "Tower of Power"!

 

[surly]

This is a commercially available system run by the manufacturers automated controls, its supposed to control itself once running. The control tower monitors the temperature constantly during mashing. The thermo probe is located down by the pump not in the kettle or at the wort return point.

If there is little or no conversion in the kettle then I'm just being a bit paranoid.

Atb. Aamcle

I can't help you, but am interested in the answer.
Does conversion occur in the wort? or in the grain itself?
If the starches dissolve into the water early on and the enzymes are also freely moving, then the conversion will occur wherever they are in contact with each other. This would mean that the enzymes WILL be affected by the higher temp in the HERMS/RIMS or whatever. Would this be significant? No idea.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

It occurs in the grain, so you would need to be carefull of heating the recirculating to high and killing the enzymes

 

[squirt in the turns]

It occurs in the grain, so you would need to be carefull of heating the recirculating to high and killing the enzymes

I thought it occurred everywhere?

I can't help you, but am interested in the answer.
Does conversion occur in the wort? or in the grain itself?
If the starches dissolve into the water early on and the enzymes are also freely moving, then the conversion will occur wherever they are in contact with each other. This would mean that the enzymes WILL be affected by the higher temp in the HERMS/RIMS or whatever. Would this be significant? No idea.

Ideally we want to get everything within the grain into solution: starches, enzymes, etc, leaving the husk as a lautering filter. Each enzyme has an optimum temperature and a higher temperature at which it becomes denatured and therefore no longer able to convert anything. The other thing to bear in mind is that enzymatic activity tends to increase with temperature, which is why higher temperature mashes achieve full conversion (and produce a more dextrinous wort) in less time than lower temperature mashes. So if the liquid in the heat exchanger is several degrees warmer than the intended mash temperature (for example close to 70 C), undesirable conversion to long-chain sugars will be occurring, and occurring more rapidly than the conversion to simpler sugars in the mash tun, which takes longer.

This is why most HERMS/RIMS systems measure the temperature at the exit of the heat exchanger/element enclosure, where the wort is hottest.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I thought it occurred everywhere?

it converts the starch in the grain to malt....there will only be minimal starch in the wort compared to the bits of grain

 

[manticle]

If you take an iodine test of liquid in the tun 5 minutes in, I bet you you will find starch.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

of course you will find some disolved starch

 

[manticle]

Starch is pretty insoluble in water - you'll find molecules in suspensuon but not in solution.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

whatever