Mashing at 2 temperatures at once - what happens?

[manticle]

Grumpy at being wrong stu? Starch is in the wort and it will undergo conversion via enzymatic activity.
But whatever hey?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Yes..the whatever hey bit Mants

 

[dammag]

If you can use the enzymes in one grain to convert the starch in another grain something must be dissolving into the wort, either the starches or the enzymes or both.

 

[toncils]

You're a grumpy bunch.

Keep in mind, water temperature is different within the same vessel; get a temp reading from the bottom of your mash tun VS the top and there's a degree or two difference (dependent on the size of the vessel). So it could be said that every mash has several different temps going at the same time.

Is it called stratosphering?

 

[mje1980]

Cool, I can tell people I run a stratospheric mash.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

now that IS awsome

 

[aamcle]

In response to the comment about a BM, I am very close to completing my NextGen build but calling a BM a single vessel is pushing. There are two vessels one inside the other plus two large filters.

I built a Counter Top Brutus 20 which is the system the Breweasy seems to be based on. But the Brutus system did the mash in a Cool Box and it did not constantly recirculate.
It was a lovely system to use but the cool box white lining failed just when I was having a bad bout of shiny fever! thus the NextGen.
The Brutus 20 was developed(?) By J Karp - http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f85/countertop-brutus-20-a-131096/

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/countertop-brutus-20-a-131411/

I don't suppose I'll ever buy a Breweasy but I'd like one.

So back to the original point, is the amount of mashing that occurs at a higher temperature in the kettle significant?


Aamcle. Still suffering shiny fever

 

[surly]

I thought it occurred everywhere?

Ideally we want to get everything within the grain into solution: starches, enzymes, etc, leaving the husk as a lautering filter. Each enzyme has an optimum temperature and a higher temperature at which it becomes denatured and therefore no longer able to convert anything. The other thing to bear in mind is that enzymatic activity tends to increase with temperature, which is why higher temperature mashes achieve full conversion (and produce a more dextrinous wort) in less time than lower temperature mashes. So if the liquid in the heat exchanger is several degrees warmer than the intended mash temperature (for example close to 70 C), undesirable conversion to long-chain sugars will be occurring, and occurring more rapidly than the conversion to simpler sugars in the mash tun, which takes longer.

This is why most HERMS/RIMS systems measure the temperature at the exit of the heat exchanger/element enclosure, where the wort is hottest.

Thanks squirt. This is largely what I suspected, but good to have it spelled out

 

[Blind Dog]

In response to the comment about a BM, I am very close to completing my NextGen build but calling a BM a single vessel is pushing. There are two vessels one inside the other plus two large filters.
So back to the original point, is the amount of mashing that occurs at a higher temperature in the kettle significant?
Aamcle. Still suffering shiny fever

The BM is a single vessel with a malt pipe. The point being that the BM works in one enclosed vessel without external pumps, pipes and plumbing. I can completely see the point of self built systems (not that I would have the time, ability or knowledge to do so). But I don't see the point of a system that takes up more space, time and effort to do the same thing as a BM. maybe if you brew a lot beers with an OG above 1.070 it might make sense, but otherwise it just seems like a lot of effort for no extra benefit.

But it is very, very shiny

As to the original point, I doubt a few degrees difference between the 2 vessels would make a great deal of difference once you learn how to dial in the system.

 

[growler]

Guys,

Our ancesters brewed wonderful beers without a thermometer (nobody spat them out)

As a case in point consider the decoction system where 20% ish was removed from the mash and then boiled and returned to raise the mash temp.....those poor enzymes had the crap beaten out of them ... & they survived....but the beer is/was considered to be a "modern" STANDARD !!!

G.

 

[Feldon]

I think you have to factor in the relatively small volume passing through the tubing exiting the heat exchanger, and the rate of flow of that volume. Would all the starch in the wort be converted during the short time it spends at a higher temp?

 

[TheWiggman]

I think the premise - 2 temps - is a bit misleading. If the liquid in the bottom pot/boiler is going to be 64°C (in your original example) then it will be slightly cooler once returned to the mash. It will then increase once it hits the kettle again. So you basically have a temp range between the two extremes, and the hotter stuff is only being exposed very short-term because the auto-sparge maintains the MT water level.

I personally don't think it will differ this much. Going by the video demonstration -
- You start at strike temp.
- Add grain, temp drops. Whole system bar small volume in kettle will drop in temp immediately
- PID will maintain mash temp, slightly lower in the MT but will be better than a standard BIAB thanks to recirc.

Don't forget, temp's measured coming out of the pump. There will be very little heat loss in that bit of tube.

Plus, this system's designed by Blichmann. They make very nice products and I can't see them overlooking something like temp control of the mash. I'm sure if you know how to brew, it will make good beer.

 

[Yob]

its not quite the same thing..but..

we recently did a brew in 3 mash tuns, 200lt mash tun at 63, 150lt mash tun at 66 and a 75lt at 68/72 and then combined the wort.. For my opinion as long as you know what you are targeting in each.. and it's going to be combined.. who gives a toss..

must be said, there wasnt much science on our mash, couldnt find info on doing anything like it but the stout has turned out great.

Necessity is the mother of invention or some such thing..

 

[Blind Dog]

its not quite the same thing..but..

we recently did a brew in 3 mash tuns, 200lt mash tun at 63, 150lt mash tun at 66 and a 75lt at 68/72 and then combined the wort.. For my opinion as long as you know what you are targeting in each.. and it's going to be combined.. who gives a toss..

must be said, there wasnt much science on our mash, couldnt find info on doing anything like it but the stout has turned out great.

Necessity is the mother of invention or some such thing..

But if you had one enclosed system where the temperature in the mash tun was 63 and the wort drawn from it was heated to 68 before being returned, you'd have a completely different result (not saying the brew easy has a 5c variance, just using your numbers). On a brew easy it's not 2 worts being combined, but 1. But I just don't think it's a major issue so long as you know your system and how to use it to achieve what you want.

 

[manticle]

To answer the OP - unless your hottest wort is 70 or above ( and depending on how long it is there), you will have both sets of enzymes working happily. Beta is rapidly destroyed above about 75 and above 70, denaturing is just a matter of time but high 60s will favour alpha which allows beta access to some of the starch which it otherwise won't have (optimised at the lower temp). Totally hypothetical but this may increase fermentability and increase conversion efficiency.

 

[Blind Dog]

Happy to be corrected, but surely beta amylase is denatured above 65c not 75C?

 

[aamcle]

Thanks All!

I really value your thoughts, I just don't have the knowledge to sort it out my self. After I insulated every Cm of tubing on my recirculating BIAB I got the bottom to wort return temperature difference down to 1°C (I'm not 100% sure I don't have traceable certified thermometers) From what has been said quality insulation would do the job on this system to.

As to the BM being one vessel, really its not the number of vessels I care about but how easy it is to do the washing up!! So as far as I'm concerned that MP and screens count.

Thanks Again. Aamcle

 

[manticle]

Happy to be corrected, but surely beta amylase is denatured above 65c not 75C?

Hence why I said rapidly destroyed, not denatured. Different sources differ on denaturing temps because denaturing is a function of multiple variables - temperature and time are the most important but it's not instant and it's not a single temperature. Beta will still work for a while at 65, 66, 67, etc, all things being equal.You don't hit 65 and wave goodbye to beta but you pretty much can at 75. Alpha is rapidly destroyed around 80 according to de Clerck.

 

[Blind Dog]

Thanks All!
I really value your thoughts, I just don't have the knowledge to sort it out my self. After I insulated every Cm of tubing on my recirculating BIAB I got the bottom to wort return temperature difference down to 1°C (I'm not 100% sure I don't have traceable certified thermometers) From what has been said quality insulation would do the job on this system to.
As to the BM being one vessel, really its not the number of vessels I care about but how easy it is to do the washing up!! So as far as I'm concerned that MP and screens count.
Thanks Again. Aamcle

Don't forget that each temperature rest in a mash is just to favour one enzyme over others. Each enzyme works within quite a wide range and even above its denature temp will still work for a time, but will rapidly reduce. I doubt the temperature range on the breweasy is so extreme that you can't make great beer once you've used it a few times and gave your numbers dialed in.

As to cleaning the BM, it's really easy and quick. My active involvement in cleaning us about 10 minutes each brew day. No idea if the breweasy would take longer

There are heaps of charts all over the web and I the literature illustrating the peaks for

 

[Blind Dog]

Hence why I said rapidly destroyed, not denatured. Different sources differ on denaturing temps because denaturing is a function of multiple variables - temperature and time are the most important but it's not instant and it's not a single temperature. Beta will still work for a while at 65, 66, 67, etc, all things being equal.You don't hit 65 and wave goodbye to beta but you pretty much can at 75. Alpha is rapidly destroyed around 80 according to de Clerck.

Fair point