Malcolm Roberts... oh my goodness gracious!

[LAGERFRENZY]

Anyone who say otherwise is an Internet Troll

 

[manticle]

Sorry MP but while the anecdotal or experiential may lead to a thorough investigation in order to find evidence for something, it is not, in and of itself evidence. I think, I feel, I believe - all subjective. Even sensory perception (I saw, I smelt, I heard) can be subject to biases and error. The whole point of evidence, especially where science is concerned is that it is demonstrably, observably and repeatedly free from subjective bias.
Your experience may be utterly valid but is not evidence.
Psychedelic experiences are not necessarily all drug inspired either.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

anyone who's had a psychedelic experience would agree with this

Or has been to an original QLD Xmas swap meet

 

[madpierre06]

Sorry MP but while the anecdotal or experiential may lead to a thorough investigation in order to find evidence for something, it is not, in and of itself evidence. I think, I feel, I believe - all subjective. Even sensory perception (I saw, I smelt, I heard) can be subject to biases and error. The whole point of evidence, especially where science is concerned is that it is demonstrably, observably and repeatedly free from subjective bias.
Your experience may be utterly valid but is not evidence.
Psychedelic experiences are not necessarily all drug inspired either.

And Manticle, you've headed towards hitting the nail. In the end it comes back to the individual...if he or she is willing to come to believe, genuinely, it will happen. But the subject of God or not is merely a distraction from the real question which is belief or not IN Christ. No more, no less. God reveals Himself to whomever He chooses, or whoever is willing to believe. My experience.....it happened. I could relate the despicable things I've done in my life and these would be believed without question, there would be nobody querying or asking for evidence...actually, the evidence is that I didn't do them as I've not done time...those who know me now may doubt I could do those things...yet I could relate the things which confirmed my faith and there are those who would try and convince me that my experience was not real or valid. So it comes back to the individual.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Psychedelic experiences are not necessarily all drug inspired either.

Do tell...please...do tell

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

And Manticle, you've headed towards hitting the nail. In the end it comes back to the individual...if he or she is willing to come to believe, genuinely, it will happen. But the subject of God or not is merely a distraction from the real question which is belief or not IN Christ. No more, no less.

You have not yet had a brief look at the Quran I am guessing

 

[stewy]

You did forget atheists. There is just as much a refusal to believe or even consider the validity of the evidentary experience of those who in particular came to a faith from a position of non-faith.

"I don't believe you"

This is Atheism in a nutshell.
I've never met an Atheist who hasn't considered the theist position, in fact the vast majority were indoctrinated themselves.
I have no idea what you mean by the "evidentary (sic) experience". There is either empirical evidence for something or there is not. The latter is a very poor epistemology.

If religious stories were unable to be told to people until they turned 18, religion would likely die out in a single generation. You have to ask yourself why...

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

"I don't believe you"

This is Atheism in a nutshell.
I've never met an Atheist who hasn't considered the theist position, in fact the vast majority were indoctrinated themselves.
I have no idea what you mean by the "evidentary (sic) experience". There is either empirical evidence for something or there is not. The latter is a very poor epistemology.

If religious stories were unable to be told to people until they turned 18, religion would likely die out in a single generation. You have to ask yourself why...

Thats why I love Aboriginal dreamtime

And its not a religion, but I believe in it

 

[Danscraftbeer]

If religious stories were unable to be told to people until they turned 18, religion would likely die out in a single generation. You have to ask yourself why...

I believe that. Yet we are a democracy. I believe in that too. So religious education enforcement is a can of worms to say the least.

 

[manticle]

And Manticle, you've headed towards hitting the nail. In the end it comes back to the individual...if he or she is willing to come to believe, genuinely, it will happen. But the subject of God or not is merely a distraction from the real question which is belief or not IN Christ. No more, no less. God reveals Himself to whomever He chooses, or whoever is willing to believe. My experience.....it happened. I could relate the despicable things I've done in my life and these would be believed without question, there would be nobody querying or asking for evidence...actually, the evidence is that I didn't do them as I've not done time...those who know me now may doubt I could do those things...yet I could relate the things which confirmed my faith and there are those who would try and convince me that my experience was not real or valid. So it comes back to the individual.

People query stuff all the time, including claims of actions made.
I'm not quite following.

 

[Jens-Kristian]

And Manticle, you've headed towards hitting the nail. In the end it comes back to the individual...if he or she is willing to come to believe, genuinely, it will happen. But the subject of God or not is merely a distraction from the real question which is belief or not IN Christ. No more, no less. God reveals Himself to whomever He chooses, or whoever is willing to believe. My experience.....it happened. I could relate the despicable things I've done in my life and these would be believed without question, there would be nobody querying or asking for evidence...actually, the evidence is that I didn't do them as I've not done time...those who know me now may doubt I could do those things...yet I could relate the things which confirmed my faith and there are those who would try and convince me that my experience was not real or valid. So it comes back to the individual.

The problem here MP, is that you are drawing parallels which are not readily applicable. If you were to say that you have done horrible things in your life and we choose to believe that you are telling the truth, then it is because we are accepting your testimony given against yourself about something that is completely believable. By that, I don't mean that I have any reason to think negatively of you (and indeed I do not), but that everyone is capable of doing something wrong. Most of us have to some extent or other been guilty of doing something which we later regret. There could be convicted murderers on this board for all most of us know. The assertion on the other hand, that there is a higher being, is in an entirely different sphere of understanding. That should be quite clear.

I'm an atheist. I grew up with religion. I've read the Bible and going by how the Bible is usually presented by its followers, I can say with some confidence that I'm pretty sure I've read it more comprehensively than 95%+ of Christians. If I reject it when people suggest they have proof of the existence of a god, it is because I have read so much, I have seen so many assertions, so many people claiming that 'this is the proof that there is a god' without even one single one of them ever even getting close to remotely suggesting a basis for that belief.

Let me hear one good reason, show me one good piece of even circumstantial evidence, and I will actually weigh it up. I'm not saying that I know there is no god. Of course I don't know that and contrary to what you suggest in your first post on the matter, I do not know of one single Atheist who actually claims to.

What I will say, and this seems to be in the sphere of what I think most atheists feel on the matter, is that throughout the history of mankind, there has been not one single instance of anything happening which in any way suggests that there is any basis whatsoever to believe that there is anything to support that there is even a hint of probability that there is a god. Not one. Are there individual experiences? Yes, there are. But I admit I do not rate them, despite some of these experiences being had by some of the people I respect most. My best friend, who is also my wife's aunt, is a former catholic nun. She's still very religious and we often discuss religion. She's extremely well educated on the matter, sharp as hell, and she brings fascinating insights to religious discussions. I deeply respect and love her, but there is still nothing that compels me to believe in a god.

If I write up what originally sparked what would become my atheism, it tends to be rejected by those who are religious as being nonsense. That is the experience a lot of atheists have. Your positioning of yourself as some form of victim of those who do not believe in the same as you, is frankly galling considering the centuries of religious censorship exerted on the world.

I'll give you what killed my religion, will you reciprocate?
____

In 1996, my sister gave birth to her first child. There were complications during labour, following which she, her husband and son were transferred to another hospital with greater expertise. Basically, he had swallowed some of the water in the womb on his way out and that clags up the lungs. After 24 hours of trying to deal with that, the hospital decided that they would have to transfer him by helicopter to the central hospital in Copenhagen (I'm originally from Denmark) as they had the capacity to clean the lungs and oxygenate his blood at the same time. This was considered a 'certain fix.' It was the 17th of December and minus 5 degrees centigrade. Do you know what you NEVER get in Denmark in minus 5 degrees centigrade? You NEVER get fog. It doesn't happen. Except for one time in the last 40 or so years; 17th of December 1996. It covered the whole country and the helicopter couldn't make the flight. It was too far to go by ambulance and to cut it short, he died the next day.

That didn't in and of itself kill my religion, but it sure as hell made me question what the hell sort of god it is we're talking about. Evil? Inconsequential? Not there? For a while, I felt that it didn't matter whether it was one or the other. Eventually though, I reached the conclusion that 'he' is not there and that there was no reason ever to have believed he was.

My sister kept her religion to some extent, although I think that's been blasted out of the water this year, as her daughter, born a couple of years later and the whole family's treasure, was diagnosed with leukaemia in January. She's been responding incredibly well to her treatment though and everything looks like she'll get through it, but seriously... I'll thank medical science, a team of astonishing doctors and my niece's downright mind-blowing mental strength and determination for that.

The few times I've told that to anyone religious, the response has ranged from 'god moves in (fucked up) mysterious ways' (emphasis mine), to 'You can't blame god for that', which is an even more fucked up thing to say if you're actually religious. Who the hell else?
___


My atheism is not frivolous. I have not stopped believing because it's 'cool' or because I won't hear peoples' testimony, or any of the other platitudes that the religious lobbies like to put out there to pretend that they are now somehow discriminated against. Guess what? Christianity has had 1800 years to make its case; it's failed. 1800 years of indoctrination and abuse of power, 1800 years to come up with something better than ONE old book and nothing whatsoever else that supports the claims of... that same old book, written by people who believed the sun revolved around the earth, which btw. was created a few thousand years ago in six days, to back it up.

You may believe and I will never question or seek to limit your right to do so. Do not however, claim that those who do not share your completely unfounded beliefs are somehow closed-minded for rejecting that belief.


Edit: Thanks, Manticle. I do hate it when I fail to proof read myself.

 

[Jens-Kristian]

Jeez. I need to type less.

 

[manticle]

Nah. What you typed was great.
Couple of errors (typos) but if you get in quick, you can fix.

 

[technobabble66]

The problem here MP, is that ...
...Guess what? Christianity has had 1800 years to make its case; it's failed. 1800 years of indoctrination and abuse of power, 1800 years to come up with something better than ONE old book and nothing whatsoever else that supports the claims of... that same old book, written by people who believed the sun revolved around the earth, which btw. was created a few thousand years ago in six days, to back it up.

You may believe and I will never question or seek to limit your right to do so. Do not however, claim that those who do not share your completely unfounded belief are somehow closed-minded for rejecting that belief.


The few times I've told that to anyone religious, the response has ranged from 'god moves in (fucked up) mysterious ways' (emphasis mine), to 'You can't blame god for that', which is an even more fucked up thing to say if you're actually religious. Who the hell else?

+1,000,000
Nailed it.
Similar background, same conclusion.

If God exists, what sort of fucked up omnipotent individual allows this world to exist.
If God exists, did it forget about Africa, etc??
What ... some sort of "test the humans" concept? Totally. Fucked.
If he did exist, he's a ****, and i chose to not subscribe to that.

However, FWIW i agree with DrSmurto, zero evidence is NOT an argument of existence. Otherwise, there are little blue men on the moon & magic exists. Total bollocks. Why not believe in Zeus?

I'm sorry MP, i'd greatly respect you as an individual, and your right to believe whatever mythology you want, but this angle of yours can't be argued on rationality.


PS: Dr Smurto, not all naturopaths are complete idiots. A few subscribe to evidence based medicine ... A few.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

 

[drsmurto]

PS: Dr Smurto, not all naturopaths are complete idiots. A few subscribe to evidence based medicine ... A few.

We call them Doctors not naturopaths. Alt med that works is simply medicine.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Your example of Newton demonstrates you have no understanding of evidence whatsoever. The apple was followed up by vast amounts of experimenral evidence. Faith stopped at the apple hitting the head.

Experience is not evidence. Why is that so hard for you to understand? You have an opinion without evidence to back it up. Opinions are like arseholes.

Science says "Now why did that apple fall and what made it fall, lets do some tests and find out why the apple fell and what made it fall?

Faith says " I believe an apple fell "

 

[goomboogo]

This may be getting a little too far off topic but did anyone see Malcolm Roberts interviewed on television last night? He seems like a reasonable person.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

Hahahaha

 

[yankinoz]

Re religion and atheism, brought in earlier, holy wandering off topic, Batman, but so be it. Maybe there should be a separate forum on God and beer.

But I'll chime in.

Atheists, agnostics and deists accept the science of the universe and of life and reject stories accepted on faith or revelation. They are not blind believers. The claim of many evangelical Christians writers that atheism is a religion accepted on faith is nonsense.

I've read philosophers on the difference between atheists and agnostics and find their arguments less than convincing, and I used to argue the point with one at length. Both camps begin with the observation that no evidence exists of God or gods, and it seems to me the difference is largely rhetorical.

Deists look at a vast, amazing universe, then at the story of evolution, and say a divine hand must be behind it all. It's an impression, rather than the proof that atheists and agnostics insist upon, but neither is it an assertion of old and sacred stories.

Religions more or rest upon tales of supernatural events, often long ago. The stories are more or less mutually exclusive, which does not prevent there being promoted with more or less zeal. The member who began the digression in this thread seems to adhere to the Christian version, but were he born in another part of the world, he'd probably be equally convinced of a different dogma.