Making Sour Beers

[manticle]

I did a quick google search on sour beer, aussiehomebrewer and came up with little. Obviously the site engine on this site will just give a the word sour eleven million times without answering any questions.

So apologies if this is something someone's been asked a few times.

I'm interested in developing a sour citrus porter or something along those lines. I've never done anything like this and so would appreciate any assistance with developing a recipe and technique.

So far all I have in mind is to buy 2 smaller fermenters solely for this and any descendants.
Basic porter recipe but with maybe higher IBU as it will probably get aged.

Then it looks like I have a few options.

1. Ferment with neutral yeast, add lactobacillus (not sure when and how this is done)
2. Ferment with flavoursome belgian style yeast, add lactobacillus
3. Ferment with brett, add lactobacillus
4 Ferment with either of the first two, add lacto and then later add brett

For citrus, I'm looking at racking onto a secondary with a blend of the zests and flesh of a blend of blood oranges and ruby red grapefruits then racking back after fermentation is complete. I'm then thinking of ageing this with some oak chips. Again these are something I've not used. The possibility of fortifying some of this with a rich port appeals to my mind but maybe this will destroy the flavour?

Can anyone into sour styles tell me just how far off the mark I am?

 

[joshuahardie]

In my sour beers, I always ferment with the regular beer yeast first, let it ferment out,
transfer to secondary and then add my bugs.

I should add the earlier you add your bugs in the ferment the stronger their role will be. (really poor explanation)
I would be interested to see that others would do, but I would be tempted to go with the laco rather than the brett.

If it is not crazy enough for you after the laco has finished, you can always up the ante by adding brett.

I have found Jamil's Berliner Weisse pod cast to be very helpful in guiding me

Will love to see the results of your experiment.

 

[tdh]

I'd say you'll get enough sourness from the right yeast.

Brad McMahon has used the Roeselare yeast and that had a very palatable sourness. Maybe he can offer some tips.

tdh

 

[joshuahardie]

Roeselare is a combo of yeast / bugs
but yeah it could give the flavour profile he is after.

 

[manticle]

I did find these pages in my hunt.

http://madfermentationist.blogspot.com/200...-with-acid.html

http://madfermentationist.blogspot.com/200...er-at-home.html

http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:HdwN8...=clnk&gl=au

All of which seem to contain some useful information.

@tdh: sorry to seem ignorant but who is Brad?

Cheers all.

 

[tdh]

Brad must be somewhere. Haven't noticed his presence here for ages. I think he still brews.
You out there Brad?

 

[Dazza_devil]

This is very interesting Manticle.
Tell me to butt out ifya want cause I know nothing about this and never fermented anything sour on purpose.
I've just been reading a bit out of Jamil and Palmer's Classic Styles and they mention ageing in Oak barrels can impart sourness from the organisms which are harbouring in the barrel, so the barrel imparts both wood and non-wood flavours. I don't know if you have the book or not but there is some detail on using wood cubes, chips or sawdust. They do suggest racking off the chips at an interval which is dependant on amount and size of wood chips etc. I can summarise some of this if you don't have access to the info.
Also mentioned in the sour ale chapter is an addition of lactic acid as an alternative to bacteria, probably an inferior result though. Also mentioned is innoculating the wort with a handful of grain, which usually contains lactobacillus, let it sit for a day or two at 38 degrees C then boil to stop the action of various bugs leaving a fixed amount of residual sourness.
Just some alternatives to using Lactobacillus delbuekii with a neutral ale yeast which will probalby give a superior result. Also suggested to split wort three ways and combine the three.
You could fortify with some whiskey after it's aged with the wood.

Edit; they say to add both yeasts together and ferment at 19degrees C

 

[brettprevans]

ok so on this topic, you could add lactic acid. but thats expensive at almost $10 per 25ml. are we better off using say Wyeast 5335 - Lactobacillus and culturing it up? or because its yeast, does it limit us only using it when there is fermentable sugars left for the yeast to grow?

in short, is there an easy, cheap was of souring beers?

yes im aware the answer is probably lactic acid is a 'cheats' way to fix/change beer post fermentation

 

[Fourstar]

ok so on this topic, you could add lactic acid. but thats expensive at almost $10 per 25ml.

more like $10 for 250ml not to mention you can control how sour you want it.

 

[brettprevans]

more like $10 for 250ml not to mention you can control how sour you want it.

ahh bugger. misread it. well that seems reasonable now.

 

[manticle]

This is very interesting Manticle.
Tell me to butt out ifya want cause I know nothing about this and never fermented anything sour on purpose.

I'm interested in all sources. Certainly I want to hear from people who've done it but ultimately I have to make up my own mind by discerning which bit of information makes sense to me. While some people may not like it, I don't see a problem with using a reference as long as you're clear where it comes from and don't claim to be an expert with the all defining truth.

Therefore cheers for the info.

 

[Quintrex]

ok so on this topic, you could add lactic acid. but thats expensive at almost $10 per 25ml. are we better off using say Wyeast 5335 - Lactobacillus and culturing it up? or because its yeast, does it limit us only using it when there is fermentable sugars left for the yeast to grow?

in short, is there an easy, cheap was of souring beers?

yes im aware the answer is probably lactic acid is a 'cheats' way to fix/change beer post fermentation

Using lactobacillus will probably give moderate sourness as it's not that alcohol tolerant. THeres some good graphs out there by raj apte showing this i believe.

I found using qumquats in the boil gave an appreciable bitterness contribution, however this faded with time.

I'd be wary of using brettanomyces in a porter as you'll want some residual sugars left to make it balanced.

You could consider doing an all brettanomyces ferment, as suprisingly an all brett ferment doesn't super-attenuate.

Cheers
Q

 

[Supra-Jim]

some (potentially) useful information on sour mashing:

http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/arti...hing-techniques

Cheers SJ

 

[Dazza_devil]

On using 3763 Roeselare in a manner which allows control of sourness levels from Jamil and Palmer's Classic Styles,

This is from the keys to brewing Flanders Red Ale,
They prefer to preferment the beer with a neutral ale yeast, using up most available sugars prior to adding 3763. Apparently the alcohol supresses yeast and bacteria activity but too much alcohol can prevent yeast and bacteria getting started.
Sourness in Flanders is derived from lactic and acetic acid. More oxygen during fermentation equals more acetic. Oak barrels can allow a suitable amount of oxygen to enter.

They also mention a pellicle but I'm off and will be reading up on this.

 

[manticle]

3763 sounds like a goer for a beginner.

Anyone have any notions on how the results compare to 3278 (lambic strain)?

 

[pmolou]

i've recently got into the sour beers aswell, i don't have much experience with lacto by itself but i've recently (as in yesturday) brewed a 100% brett C beer with galaxy and acidulated malt... which i was going for a sour tropical fruity beer, so i'll post back with results after a few weeks...

also just another option to consider could be to simply put in the dregs of a cantilon bottle as their beers are often quite acidic and sour... although i think you'd have a less predictable outcome than just pitching lacto or pedio

 

[Quintrex]

3763 sounds like a goer for a beginner.

Anyone have any notions on how the results compare to 3278 (lambic strain)?

IMO a lot more flavour character from brettanomyces in the lambic strain, more muted flavour contributions from 3763, the first pitch of roeselare doesn't sour that much, unless you leave it for years, the second pitch however sours beautifully

Cheers
Q

 

[Doogiechap]

I tossed the dregs of two Orval bottles into 20 litres of racked Saison that stalled at 1030. 18 months later it certainly has a sour charachter.
(and fermented out an additional 30 points ).
Sounds interesting bloke

 

[manticle]

So far my ideas are:

1. Make up a darkish base (not specifically porter but red-brown) with high bittering but no flavour or aroma hops
2. Mash high to allow residual sugars at FG
3. Ferment with neutral ale yeast like 1056 or us05
4. Rack to secondary, add 3763 or 3278
5. Rack onto citrus
6. Rack onto oak chips
7. Brew another beer and make slightly sour with either sour mash or lactobacillus.
8. Taste both and blend as needed
9. Fortify 1/3 with single malt, one third with fortified wine and leave one third as is (unless it tastes amazing as is in which case fortification will be either minimal or non existent).

This will be a long term project.

 

[Quintrex]

So far my ideas are:

1. Make up a darkish base (not specifically porter but red-brown) with high bittering but no flavour or aroma hops
2. Mash high to allow residual sugars at FG
3. Ferment with neutral ale yeast like 1056 or us05
4. Rack to secondary, add 3763 or 3278
5. Rack onto citrus
6. Rack onto oak chips
7. Brew another beer and make slightly sour with either sour mash or lactobacillus.
8. Taste both and blend as needed
9. Fortify 1/3 with single malt, one third with fortified wine and leave one third as is (unless it tastes amazing as is in which case fortification will be either minimal or non existent).

This will be a long term project.

I'd follow the KISS principle for your first foray into sour beers.

And bitterness and sourness clash, most sour beers are very modestly bittered. something worth keeping in mind.

Q