Making Sour Beers

[Nick JD]

Would Dan Murphys have a sour beer in stock? I've never tried one.

 

[manticle]

I'd follow the KISS principle for your first foray into sour beers.

And bitterness and sourness clash, most sour beers are very modestly bittered. something worth keeping in mind.

Q

The main reason I'm looking at high bitterness is because of the age. MY understanding (and I'll happily accept guidance on this) is that bitterness will mellow with age but the preservative qualities of the hops will assist with the ageing. That's why a barley wine works after a year or more while a hefe only works within a finite window.

What general IBU range would you suggest (I'm actually not a high IBU man preferring malty, rich and caramel type flavours generally)?

I figure if I can hang onto a fermenting beer for a year, those steps will simplify themselves because a lot of it will be ferment and forget. I agree with kiss which is why I'll go with a commercial souring product (first idea had pedio followed by brett etc etc). Fortification is just an idea at this stage and is neither here nor there. I'll revisit that the year after I've put this down.

 

[brettprevans]

Would Dan Murphys have a sour beer in stock? I've never tried one.

you mean other than infected or skunky arse megaswill that's not meant to taste sour !!!

thye should have at least a couple. they should have something like a kriek, framboise, maybe some thing like a cantillion gueuze

 

[Stuster]

I think a porter with brett is good. I've made a couple and I thought they worked well. Not sure about adding a lacto culture to it. Hmm. Might work.

I totally agree with Quintrex that you don't need to go high for bitterness if you are going to sour it.

Personally, I think that you could simplify your plans a bit. There's a lot going on there. I think I'd start with either a brett porter which you add citrus to or age it on oak chips, not both. Or use either the Roeselare yeast or a lambic yeast and nothing else. See how those go and work from there. Otherwise I think it might end up with too many competing flavours.

The alternative is to make a really big batch (or several consecutive batches) and split the batch into several 10-15L portions. You can then try different things with different things.

There's some info on sour beers here and that might give you a few ideas. And you could post on the Babble Belt for the opinion of some real experts on sour beers.

Anyway, good luck with it but make sure you know what you want out of the other end before you start.

 

[manticle]

Yeastwise I was only going to go for one of the two wyeasts (unless you mean bypassing the neutral primary yeast?) I'll drop the idea of high bitterness. Something around 30?

As for the oak and citrus, maybe I'll try a split batch. Might drop the fortification idea for now.

Thanks for the links.

I have an idea of what I want although half the fun is not knowing exactly what will happen.

Basically though: rich, sour citrus reminiscent of wine, wineries, oak barrels and all the lovely fermenty musty type things you can taste in a lambic of Normandy cider or smell in a winery. Winter dessert, tart, refreshing but comforting like a slightly stinky cheese eaten with a rich sour citrus liqueur. Complexities and layers that have been given a chance to mature and separate. That kind of thing.

 

[EK]

Perhaps Wild Brews by Jeff Sparrow would be useful as it covers a few types of sour beers. The book "Explores the world of Lambics, Flanders red and Flanders brown beers."
Available from Amazon, Beertown and Booktopia and other places. No affiliation etc. etc.

:icon_cheers:
EK

 

[KillerRx4]

IMO a lot more flavour character from brettanomyces in the lambic strain, more muted flavour contributions from 3763, the first pitch of roeselare doesn't sour that much, unless you leave it for years, the second pitch however sours beautifully

Cheers
Q

I did a Flanders red with roselare, first pitch is way to sour for my palate after 15 months. First impression I got was wow, i'm drinking vinegar! Did well in competition though.

Second pitch is still hibernating in a cube, god knows how sour that is going to be.

 

[Dazza_devil]

Just a thought. If your end product is very sour after say 12-24 months you could use it as a sour additive to a fresher brew. Easily control your sourness to the desired level by blending it with whatever you like.

 

[t2000kw]

Have you considered using acidulated malt?

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Acidulated_malt

I've used it when making a Guinness clone and it works well for that. It gives it that sour "twang" that's not too prominent but it is there.

Don

 

[manticle]

I might put a touch in but I'm really looking for something with quite an intensity (although I want balance and complexity too) rather than a subtelty. I know that I like sourness in other brews that I've tried - the main thing is getting the techniques right.

 

[manticle]

Someone from the babblebelt forum that stuster linked to me posted this (not in response to my question) which is very detailed and may be of interest to anyone interested in brewing any kind of sour beer:

http://brewery.org/library/LmbicJL0696.html#Fruit

 

[beers]

Here's another blog you may find helpful manticle. http://madfermentationist.blogspot.com/200...er-at-home.html
Reading that blog has got me itching to try my hand at another Flanders Red. But my funkified conditioning cube has a lambic sitting in it at the moment..

 

[manticle]

I posted that link a bit earlier. Great blogspot though.

 

[Swinging Beef]

Im keen on sour beers too right now.
Just finishing off a 10litre split batch of trippel that was kinda uninteresting and its big sister that I split out and added the dreggs of two Orval bottles to and racked for a month.
The dreggy one is exceptional.
Im planning to brett attack probably around 20% of all future brews.
I like the idea of a brety porter.
Hmm....

Just whatever changes you make to sour them up, try to split the batch to provide you with a "control" to compare to while you are sorting things out. And remembner to only change one thing at a time.

 

[neonmeate]

I like the idea of a bretty porter.
[/quote

can recommend that highly after tasting stuster's

 

[manticle]

Okay.

Roselare yeast to be ordered this coming week. I bought 2 fifteen litre fermenters and a glass carboy for ageing.

Current recipe is:

Style: Oud Bruin
Type: All grain
Size: 15 liters
Color: 32 HCU (~16 SRM)
OG: 1.046
FG: 1.005
Alcohol: 5.3% v/v (4.2% w/w)
Grain: 2kg JW Pilsner
1kg JW Munich I
20g Roasted barley
Mash: 70% efficiency @ 68 deg
Boil: 60 minutes
SG 1.030
500g homemade dark Belgian candi sugar added part way in primary (thinking of dropping this in favour of more malt but have come across it in Flanders style recipes)
Hops: Northern Brewer (8.5% AA, 60 min.) to around 2o IBU or less
Primary: 1056 - around 7 days
Secondary: 3763 Roselare

Once FG is reached, rack into glass carboy.
Glass Carboy will contain 5 kg Ruby red grapefruit (depipped) and 5 kg blood orange (depipped) as well as a hop bag with around 10g oak chips that have been soaked in single malt whisky for a week.

Hopefully I can leave it alone for a year or so.

The last couple of lambics I've tried have been very sour (which I like ) but other characters have been acking. I'm aiming for complexity and layering in the final product. The good thing about it is, after a year if it doesn't taste how I want, I'm sure I can work out ways to take it in a different direction.

Any thoughts from sour beer enthusiasts welcomed.

 

[kabooby]

Okay.

Roselare yeast to be ordered this coming week. I bought 2 fifteen litre fermenters and a glass carboy for ageing.

Current recipe is:

Style: Oud Bruin
Type: All grain
Size: 15 liters
Color: 32 HCU (~16 SRM)
OG: 1.046
FG: 1.005
Alcohol: 5.3% v/v (4.2% w/w)
Grain: 2kg JW Pilsner
1kg JW Munich I
20g Roasted barley
Mash: 70% efficiency @ 68 deg
Boil: 60 minutes
SG 1.030
500g homemade dark Belgian candi sugar added part way in primary (thinking of dropping this in favour of more malt but have come across it in Flanders style recipes)
Hops: Northern Brewer (8.5% AA, 60 min.) to around 2o IBU or less
Primary: 1056 - around 7 days
Secondary: 3763 Roselare

Once FG is reached, rack into glass carboy.
Glass Carboy will contain 5 kg Ruby red grapefruit (depipped) and 5 kg blood orange (depipped) as well as a hop bag with around 10g oak chips that have been soaked in single malt whisky for a week.

Hopefully I can leave it alone for a year or so.

The last couple of lambics I've tried have been very sour (which I like ) but other characters have been acking. I'm aiming for complexity and layering in the final product. The good thing about it is, after a year if it doesn't taste how I want, I'm sure I can work out ways to take it in a different direction.

Any thoughts from sour beer enthusiasts welcomed.

Recipe looks like it will give you a great beer.

Here's a few things to consider

- Old Bruin and flanders reds tend to have a portion of maize in the grist.
- Generally Old bruins are aged in stainless and flanders reds are aged in oak barrels.
- Keep the recipe simple. These beers are made with the yeast, aging and blending of different beers.

Personally I would leave the fruit out for now. You will get a lot of fruit character from the yeast and aging. If you find in 12 months that you want more character you can always add it then. Best to do a base beer first that is simple. This will let you know exactly what you are getting from the yeast.

Kabooby

 

[Stuster]

I agree about the fruit, although I would suggest adding fruit to half of it. With my first batch of Flanders Red I bottled most of it, but put 5L onto some raspberries. That came out really well actually, although it's hard to say if it wasn't partly that it matured for another 9 months or so on the raspberries.

I think you'd probably want to add some crystal malts in there. Gives the bugs something to chew on.

 

[Quintrex]

I agree about the fruit, although I would suggest adding fruit to half of it. With my first batch of Flanders Red I bottled most of it, but put 5L onto some raspberries. That came out really well actually, although it's hard to say if it wasn't partly that it matured for another 9 months or so on the raspberries.

I think you'd probably want to add some crystal malts in there. Gives the bugs something to chew on.

If he added the fruit at a later stage the fruit sugars will feed the bugs primarily, resulting in increased acidity, however the grapefruit also has a large amount of acids present naturally, once the sugar is gone, this acidity will become a lot more evident. I think manticle's biggest problem will be making this one not too acidic.

I definitely agree with kabooby, keep it simple, make the base beer first, then add the fruit later(or do half with / half without). There are so many variables in these beers and so much complexity already, the biggest thing you have to do is wait.

My 2 cents would be to increase the gravity of the brew a whisker (maybe to 1.055-1.065), as this will prevent the souring occurring too much and will also give it more aging potential, you'll still get heaps of brett character though.

Cheers
Q

 

[brettprevans]

First impression I got was wow, i'm drinking vinegar! Did well in competition though.

hmm interesting. I have a beer atm that is just full on lactic. Maple tried and nearly died. I was going to chuck it, but maybe I should keep a few bottles and enter it into comps!

Quintrex - actually I might send you a bottle for your feedback. I dont mind if the response is "its fkn awful, chuck it!". Its not actually meant to be a sour beer. it is the partigyle brew i did with recultered coopers yeast.