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Joe White Pilsner Vs Weyermann Pilsner

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Quokka42

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Brewman_ said:
I have never ever said I hate Joe White. Not here and not in any exchange or in any private conversation. That has never happened.

I have a preference and lets face it, there is no point holding two Australian malts. I have BB mainly and others have JW, you'll make good beer from both.

I said that I do have JW malts. I am a retailer of theirs.

Cheers Steve
Fairy nuff.

I'm sure I have warned people I am proudly Australian (and actually worked illegally as a Chef when younger.)

I might look into your BB if I find myself wealthy enough - but may I ask a former workmate to drop a couple of bottles of my best in to you when he is next in town?

We all like to keep open minds, right?
 

technobabble66

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Quokka42 said:
... but I don't understand why some are so anti-JW. ...
Quokka42 said:
.... I know brew shops and hipsters don't like them because they are cheap, and some people just don't like Australia...​
....
Rather than wonder why there are many brewers that prefer other maltsters and go off assuming it's because they're hipsters (let's face it, we could just sub in the word "wanker") or retailers simply trying to maximise their profits, maybe consider another possibility: that there are quite a few brewers on here who have also been All-Grain brewing for many years, with at least a few decent results, who have tried many different maltsters, and have simply realised that for various styles or just generally across the board, other maltsters produce better malts for their needs.

Have you tried many/any of these other maltster, including the Aussie ones? - I see you've tried some Gladfields spec malts. I'd agree they're great, and some of their specs are quite unique. OTOH, they're also probably one of the farthest to the other end of the spectrum - i.e.: they're some of the highest quality and highest price malts.
FWIW, i'd also be very, very heavily constrained by lack of funds. Luckily i've been able to get onto some bulk buys to get my hands on a variety of the UK, Euro, US, & NZ malts. All are great, with their strengths and weaknesses. The main weakness for most of them is the cost at normal prices!

As has been touched on, there's generally certain malts that are better/best for some styles. When i say that, by the way, that's not necessarily because we're desperately seeking approval for simply using a genuine/authentic/traditional set of ingredients. I think you'll find most good brewers couldn't give a toss about that bollocks. Instead, it's simply a case of certain malts are better at producing a particular flavour that is best for that type of beer.
The easiest example of this that springs to mind is Dingemanns Biscuit. This particular type of biscuity (surprise!) maltiness is perfect (in my experience) for matching the type of flavours that the belgian yeasts produce. I haven't tried the Gladfields version TBH, however i'd definitely say it's better than any other similar malt i've tried. Everything else just doesn't quite blend in as smoothly or enhance the overall beer as much. The others are not necessarily bad, they're just not quite as good, or the resulting beers are just not quite as good. Obviously, this is all in the tastebuds of this beholder!
In comparison to that is, say Simpsons' Amber (a broadly similar malt). Not so great in a belgian or 2 i've tried it in. However, awesome in Ambers, (Pales), Browns, Porters and Stouts. Similarly for Briess' Victory.
This kinda makes sense in that these maltsters have traditionally produced malts for local breweries that produce local styles, so they need to produce the best malts to specifically suit those breweries and the types of beers they have specialised in for many many years. Hence, it's not going to be surprising to find UK maltsters produce some malts that are some of the best for bitters, browns, porters, stouts and other UK styles. Similarly, the german maltster produce malts specifically designed to suit german lagers, Alts/etc, & pilsners; and the Belgian maltster produce some of the best malts for the various belgian styles. Worth noting the US maltster produce certain malts that specifically suit some of their New World styles. Or maybe you could argue that the New World styles have come about because the brewers there have had to try to find recipes that make best use of the local malts ... (at least a bit of the former from what the Briess maltsters have commented on before).
Obviously there're some exceptions.
Now, what local styles do the traditional/long-standing Aussie maltsters need to produce their malts for? Hmmm ... aussie lagers.
Hence, they suit aussie lagers very well.
But for other types of beers, there may be better malts to use.
That's not to say you can't make other great beers from JW. As stated before, many beer styles can be made well from JW, as you can compensate with certain spec malts or just tweak the recipe as best you can to suit. However, it's generally best to use the malts that are better suited to that particular type of beer. Especially for a beer like a pilsner or german lager - given they're ~100% pilsner malt, it doesn't leave much wriggle room to alter the malt element. Hence, there's a lot of experienced brewers out there/here who recommend Wey pils for a euro lager - because they've tried a few different malts and Wey is the best for their tastes. Or Dingemann. Or Gladfield.

By the way, I'm bothering to write all this because i went through a similar process a few years ago - wondering why JW was used by a lot of brewers, but most recommended certain other maltsters, especially for particular styles. It's taken a few years and many beers later to understand the reasons.

FWIW, have you tried Viking? It's a Finnish maltster. I've been using a fair bit of their Pale Ale & Munich for the last year - cheap as chips, very consistent, and really good for the price. Homemakeit sell in melbourne. Maybe look into it if you're watching the pennies like me. Not aussie, i know, but it's something different for you to consider.

A minor point, the only over-priced/rip-off LHBS i know happens to mainly stock JW.
And i believe retailers typically use a standard markup on the grains in their store. So the price difference you see on different maltsters in a store is probably reflective of the wholesale price they pay, rather than their attempts to rip you off.

And one other thing, when someone says "Czech Pilsner" it's again not because they're simply being twats trying to emulate a traditional style for the sake of it. Most of the time, at least on this forum, they're just using that particular label to simply describe a certain combination/balance of malt, hops & yeast elements that is emulated in a Czech Pils. So rather than spend a paragraph describing exactly what they're after, or what they've achieved, you can simply say "Czech pils" and move on. Some might be a little precious about exactly what a style is, most just see it as a general descriptor guideline.

Happy brewing & keep up the enthusiasm!
 

barls

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enough of the insults and crap
last warning all.
 

labels

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For those that haven't heard, Coopers Brewery are building a $63M malting plant in Adelaide. This is not a mucking around piece of infrastructure. Being my own business is in the same suburb, I've been watching it take shape over the past 12 months it's huge. I've heard (not confirmed, only hearsay) that Coopers will only need 10% of the output for their own brewery and the rest is for export.

I don't know whether or not they will make the malts available for homebrewers but have come to the conclusion it will cause a conflict of interest with the Coopers homebrew kits but, you never know. Wait and see I guess.
 

barls

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labels said:
For those that haven't heard, Coopers Brewery are building a $63M malting plant in Adelaide. This is not a mucking around piece of infrastructure. Being my own business is in the same suburb, I've been watching it take shape over the past 12 months it's huge. I've heard (not confirmed, only hearsay) that Coopers will only need 10% of the output for their own brewery and the rest is for export.

I don't know whether or not they will make the malts available for homebrewers but have come to the conclusion it will cause a conflict of interest with the Coopers homebrew kits but, you never know. Wait and see I guess.
when we did the tour at anhc. they were talking about making it available to home brewers. this was also mentioned in the presentation dr tim gave as well.
 

good4whatAlesU

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Excellent, the more the merrier. Lets hope they make a good range and quality of malts. Provenance of the grains would be good too.
 

Danscraftbeer

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Wow this topic is hot I haven't read it all but personal experience Weyermann seems obviously superior as in a very clear pre boil wort for one example. I mean Finished beer bright clear wort. I really don't know what to make of that to be honest just personal experience.
Oh, and others tips not to use JW from negative opinion but just taste the grain! etc. So I rarely use JW it to be honest.
Pity that for Aussie made. I will however get fresh local malted grain from Powels Malts. Its pretty darn good I think because its so fresh. It has a nutty note to it, smaller harder grain but hits the usual efficiency levels. Pretty clear wort too.
Get local fresh if you can for good aussie stuff.
 

MHB

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Its funny , the concept of freshness, Malt and Coffee need to be allowed to vent after being either malted or roasted, if you use either too early or too late they don't taste as good.
If you want some idea of why the Weyermann wort is so clear, have a look at the Coarse/Fine difference, the Weyermann is typically under 1%, that is bordering on over modified, but it sure as hell makes for brilliant wort (that among other things).
Personally I wouldn't choose anything other than the Weyermann for a Pilsner, knowing my taste for big south German/Czech styles it would probably be the floor malted version.
Mark
 

Danscraftbeer

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So I can only imagine that the whole process from seed to grain is the major influence.
That can only be influenced by global location really. Seasonal, soil, influence on the growing of the grain.
Just thinking out loud.
 

Lord Raja Goomba I

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I used to get Jw pils directly from the factory.

If I was doing a Euro lager, no way, but with a good boil and grist, great for an IPA or APA.

This parochial rubbish is irrelevant.
 

MHB

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Danscraftbeer said:
So I can only imagine that the whole process from seed to grain is the major influence.
That can only be influenced by global location really. Seasonal, soil, influence on the growing of the grain.
Just thinking out loud.
One of those "everything ends up in the glass" type of things. The type of barley (breed) and everything you mentioned all play a part, even a good thunderstorm at the wrong can change the protein content of the grain.

LRG
I think it can be taken too far but the type malt available, the brewing processes used and the beer that came out the end all co-evolved.
Typical British very low protein highly modified, well kilned malt is the best (or the best suited) to making isothermal mashed UK ales.
Historically the under-modified European malts lead to decoction and step temperature mashes, and ultimately to the clear pilsner beers of central Europe.

We are lucky to have such a range to choose from, I have mentioned before that when I started AG brewing we could get about 5 malts all from Adelaide Malt - then owned by Coopers, since sold to JW - over 20 years ago now I was paying $65 for a bag of base malt... and the choice was call it limited.
All the base malt was Schooner and you can really only make one beer with schooner, its a lot like the beer Coppers made at the time (not a bad thing) but limited...
Mark
 

good4whatAlesU

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Australian springs/summers of the grain growing region can be very hot and (mostly) dry. I'm guessing the slightly milder summers of Germany and NZ slow down the grain ripening. Also their yields are slightly higher per hectare so the plants aren't standing balls in the wind. That's why I thought Tassie might be the go (or at least a cooler irrigated area) rather than hot dry land.
 

klangers

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The malting process requires an enormous amount of water, and electricity for refrigeration. I think any variation between Wey and JW is more about the malting process, as Wey have access to more water and use less electricity (because they're in a cool climate) so it costs them less to do it properly. JW, on the other hand, are a macro maltster whose market is significantly more price-driven. JW operate for the domestic breweries which have very narrow SKU ranges. Hence, JW cuts the process to the bone in order to meet customer and market demands.

Hopefully a craft malting scene starts up here. Hell, maybe I can be part of that if I get off my lazy arse and finish my home malt plant!
 

good4whatAlesU

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Get into it Klangers - the more the merrier.

I might order some JW and Weyerman and do a direct comparison with my feedbag malt :)

If the feedbag is comparable, I'll put it on the market for 99c a kilo.
 

Lord Raja Goomba I

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MHB said:
LRG
I think it can be taken too far but the type malt available, the brewing processes used and the beer that came out the end all co-evolved.
Typical British very low protein highly modified, well kilned malt is the best (or the best suited) to making isothermal mashed UK ales.
Historically the under-modified European malts lead to decoction and step temperature mashes, and ultimately to the clear pilsner beers of central Europe.
Agreed totally. And appreciate your technical contributions to the discussion.

My issue is that others saying "you are a hipster for saying Aussie malts aren't as good" misses the point and adds nothing to the discussion.

For me, it's a horses for courses thing, and as I've said in other threads - I generally lean UK, because it makes the beers I like to brew.
 

Bribie G

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My current blonde ale was going to be an all Aussie with topaz and ella but I ended up using Weyermann as a single malt and the rich maltiness is amazing.
 

Lyrebird_Cycles

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klangers said:
The malting process requires an enormous amount of water, and electricity for refrigeration.
And gas or other heat source for kilning, but economically these are overshadowed by one simple factor: it takes seven days to complete a cycle.

Each part of the maltings (two steepings, four germinating floors, one kiln) must be sized for the same size batch, so the maltster ends up running that size batch every day to maximise return on investment.

If you are going to supply the big end of town, that batch size is 200 tonnes minimum so you are producing about 70,000 tonnes PA. If you can save $10 a tonne by salting in a percentage of feed barley, that's almost a million a year.

This is also why Australian maltsters can seem a little inflexible compared to some of the other players: good luck selling a 200 tonne batch of Munich or Vienna malt on the domestic market in a single sale, so the best option is for every batch to be a pale malt to customer spec.
 

Nullnvoid

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Lord Raja Goomba I said:
Agreed totally. And appreciate your technical contributions to the discussion.

My issue is that others saying "you are a hipster for saying Aussie malts aren't as good" misses the point and adds nothing to the discussion.

For me, it's a horses for courses thing, and as I've said in other threads - I generally lean UK, because it makes the beers I like to brew.
"Horses for Courses" is Not for Horses new business venture.
 

klangers

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Lyrebird_Cycles said:
And gas or other heat source for kilning, but economically these are overshadowed by one simple factor: it takes seven days to complete a cycle.

Each part of the maltings (two steepings, four germinating floors, one kiln) must be sized for the same size batch, so the maltster ends up running that size batch every day to maximise return on investment.

If you are going to supply the big end of town, that batch size is 200 tonnes minimum so you are producing about 70,000 tonnes PA. If you can save $10 a tonne by salting in a percentage of feed barley, that's almost a million a year.

This is also why Australian maltsters can seem a little inflexible compared to some of the other players: good luck selling a 200 tonne batch of Munich or Vienna malt on the domestic market in a single sale, so the best option is for every batch to be a pale malt to customer spec.
Yeah that's what I was getting at. It's about technical reasons and economics of established players; not really about Australia being unable to grow or malt quality barley.

Energy cost is a very significant factor in determining profitability of malting. The cycle time can't be changed (without process changes like gibberellic acid additions, grain roughening to aid with steeping), and so a maltster in a cold climate doesn't need to expend anywhere near the same amount of energy to provide cool, moist air to germination over several days. Kilning does require a lot of gas, but modern plants have heat recovery which drastically improves efficiency.

I would love to see the Weyermann plant and understand how they manage such a huge product range.
 

Glomp

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Lyrebird_Cycles said:
Yes I've seen that too but it makes no sense. World barley production is about 100 MT PA. Australian barley production is about 8 MT PA. Around 30% of the crop reaches malting grade.

reference: https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/Resources%5CCraftBrewing%5CPDFs%5CAgricultural_Reports_and_Papers/BSG_CROPREPORT_PRESENTATION_2014.pdf

On the other hand Australia exports an unusually large percentage of its malt production, mostly due to our proximity to a bunch of countries with hot wet climates which are inimical to barley production.
It makes sense as australia is one of the chief players in the trade of barley seen from the below quote from http://aegic.org.au/about/australian-grains/barley/.. It doesn't produce anything like that percentage though in world production terms.

Australia is a dominant player in world barley export markets, representing more than 40 percent of the world’s malting barley trade and 20 percent of the feed barley trade. It
Demand for high quality barley is strong both in Australia and internationally with Australian barley well recognised for its excellent malt and feed qualities. Australia produces two-row spring barley that is plump and bright with moderate protein content. Harvested grain has low moisture content with long storage viability.
 
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