Joe White Pilsner Vs Weyermann Pilsner

[rude]

Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi

 

[Byran]

Ive used both and seemed to think that the JW pilsner wasnt the flavour I was looking for in a pilsner. It has a different flavour and aroma to the Weyermann. The JW ale is fantastic however. Of course im going off my palate.

 

[Quokka42]

I am well aware this is an old thread - just thought it better to use it rather than start a new one.

I am planning to do a lager soon, as I gave up on it years ago, but now have a fridge and freezer to suit and have gotten bloody good at allgrain ales.

I am planning on a Pilsner as it is a very simple recipe, and yes I will be using Joe White, as it is what I have (it is a great neutral base malt for other beers, and I am a huge fan of JW Trad Ale malt.)

I also BIAB - no way I can afford this fancy 3V or GF stuff, so my question is this:

I read this very interesting article https://byo.com/mead/item/1497-the-science-of-step-mashing and would like some advice from those with experience brewing Pilsners if:

a) Should I start the mash at the lower water/grain ratio, then raise it with hot water additions, or heat it until the saccharification step, then add hot water for the mash-out?

b) Is it really necessary at all to step mash a Pilsner these days?

c) Is Lactic acid to the equivalent of 5% acidulated malt OK for this style?

 

[Jack of all biers]

a) doesn't matter between those two choices (heating by element or hot water additions). Decoction might make a difference if you boil the decoct for long enough to get some caramelisation happening (I've done both decoct and infusion steps and have noticed a slight difference, but it is slight).

b) protein rest (depends on the malt of course) - if the malt is well modified, then no. The Amylase rests are different however. That is a question of taste and what flavour profile you want out of your Pils. The steps can be used to change the flavour/mouthfeel or if you want a fairly balanced profile then go for a single infusion of 65C. Nothing wrong with a single infusion for a Pils.

c) use the least amount of acidulated malt as you need to get to the pH mash profile you want. I know this doesn't answer your question and to put it shortly, 5% SHOULD be the max and if you NEED that much, maybe look at using lower alkalinity water to begin with. Do you really NEED 5% or are you just asking the question?

 

[contrarian]

You can easily start out with a single infusion mash and see how it goes. While decoctions are the traditional way of making pilsners you can get a similar result by adding some melanoiden to your grist.

Start simple and then work from there.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I know Weyermann Pale Ale Malt is the clearest pre boil Malt I have ever experienced.
I'd be confident to use it up to 100% for flavour too.

 

[Quokka42]

I have had great success adjusting pH in my ales below 5.4 - the actual ale before I pitch the yeast tends to be crystal clear and any chill haze disappears within about a week. My calculations with Brewer's Friend which up to this point have been quite accurate, suggest I need close to the equivalent of 5% just to get to 5.4, and I have heard that Pilsners are prone to haze.

Apart from that, thanks a heap for all the great advice - single infusion is so much easier!

As I said, I am starting really simple, but if any JW haters are watching be warned I will be sharing a few bottles with Czech beer lovers without any warnings. I accept that I will probably be trying a more "authentic" Pilsner malt in the future, but I don't understand why some are so anti-JW. I wouldn't want to go work for them, as Tassie is just too bloody cold for me, but it is still very much a part of Australia - the best bloody Country on Earth!

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Its Racism. It blows all directions like the wind.

Like, Aussie made has no cultural or religious dominance.

Or then again it could be that JW malt just doesn't taste that good and needs improvement in some ways.

 

[Quokka42]

But the JW ale malts could only be criticized for a lack of strength of flavour. The Trad Ale is a great base for British styles, the Pilsner for American pales - Amber and roasted barley beyond compare. I know brew shops and hipsters don't like them because they are cheap, and some people just don't like Australia...​

I have listed where I live, and I think we are a perfect picture of Australian Culture. OK, it's annoying that Muslims don't drink - but they love barbecue so much and are tolerant enough that Australia Day at Tirhatuan park is like the lamb ad with Waleed Aly, but more cricket and soccer.

Oh, and a bunch of bikies show up to complete the picture.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

True that!.
Honestly if there is going to be any balance and harmony in this modern day.
The balance is for us drinkers to drink less but the Muslims need to drink some more too. Its only fair to spread the good feelings etc.

 

[klangers]

Joe White cops flak because they have demonstrated **** quality control compared to other maltsters.

They were caught out a couple years ago falsifying their malt QA check results.

 

[Brewno Marz]

Sounds quite damning. Do you have any more information?

I do recall the new owner's of JWM, Cargill's, sued Viterra for damages over claims made during the sale process about plant capacity and capabilty to meet volumes at the contracted specs.

 

[contrarian]

Joe white is decent brewing malt and at least when you get it is comparatively fresh. European malts would be 3-4 months minimum and probably a lot more from packaging to delivery in Australia.

I currently prefer the gladfields malts over anything else due to their freshness and flavour but I will happily use JW if that's what I have on hand.

 

[Quokka42]

Gladfields have some great stuff - some of their specialty malts have no substitute, but my primary reason for home brewing is an almost complete lack of money. I have brewed many beers far superior to anything I could buy using JW malts, but I suspected the usual suspects would show up - that's why I didn't want to start a fresh thread.

But to AHB's credit I've actually gotten more good advice than ****, and my questions answered, so thank you all.

Now I want to get it started sooner rather than later, but my Irish Red turned out so well it won't last so I have to do another of that today, and I have to make a starter if I'm going to do a lager anyway.

 

[manticle]

I have had great success adjusting pH in my ales below 5.4 - the actual ale before I pitch the yeast tends to be crystal clear and any chill haze disappears within about a week. My calculations with Brewer's Friend which up to this point have been quite accurate, suggest I need close to the equivalent of 5% just to get to 5.4, and I have heard that Pilsners are prone to haze.

Apart from that, thanks a heap for all the great advice - single infusion is so much easier!

As I said, I am starting really simple, but if any JW haters are watching be warned I will be sharing a few bottles with Czech beer lovers without any warnings. I accept that I will probably be trying a more "authentic" Pilsner malt in the future, but I don't understand why some are so anti-JW. I wouldn't want to go work for them, as Tassie is just too bloody cold for me, but it is still very much a part of Australia - the best bloody Country on Earth!

Some people just prefer the character of other malts. Neither anti AU nor anti JW.

When I first started AG, I made some good beers using JW. Many of the same recipes, made again with simpsons or weyermann or dingemans, aussie schooner or gladfields, etc were improvements. I think the pils and ale are totally fine but with the munich and vienna, I get a note I'm not fond of when chewing the raw grain - a kind of plastic note. My palate more than the malt. Good luck with your pils - there's much more to making a good one than choice of maltster.

 

[TheWiggman]

I've brewed lagers with both JW pils and Weyermann pils and I've found that - like everything - it's horses for courses. If your'e brewing an Aussie lager with pride and sugarz you won't get the authentic character (or lack thereof) of a typical pub beer if you use Weyermann. Conversely, using JW for a German pils will likely fall short of the real deal. You may even prefer the German malt in a lager with PoR but it won't be 'to style'. Try both with the same beer and see for yourself what the difference will be.
Unlike others I've not noted any efficiency or repeatability issues using JW malts.

Some details about the Cargill vs. Joe White here

 

[labels]

You can brew great pils and lagers with JW export pils.

The only issues I have had are very recent and that is the malt appears ungraded. Lots of variation in seed size caused me a big headache when milling, the big grains crushed well, the smaller ones just slipped on through. I had to adjust the mill and run it back through again ending up with a much finer crush than I wanted with subsequant problems in lautering.

Yes, it will result in a different beer to Euro malts but that doesn't make it bad, I think a lot of Asian beers - which are very pilsner-like are made with Aussie malt and JW is the biggest!

 

[Adr_0]

Yeah I read somewhere that Aussie barley is used for something like 30% of malted barley around the world?

 

[barls]

You can brew great pils and lagers with JW export pils.

The only issues I have had are very recent and that is the malt appears ungraded. Lots of variation in seed size caused me a big headache when milling, the big grains crushed well, the smaller ones just slipped on through. I had to adjust the mill and run it back through again ending up with a much finer crush than I wanted with subsequant problems in lautering.

Yes, it will result in a different beer to Euro malts but that doesn't make it bad, I think a lot of Asian beers - which are very pilsner-like are made with Aussie malt and JW is the biggest!

this is the reason i stopped using it.
there is only one other malt i will never use again and that global as its the only one i got a stuck sparge with.
and i mean like concrete nothing in nothing out.

 

[Quokka42]

I did notice a few grains slipping through, but in my case not enough to worry about or cause a measurable difference in the beer (I BIAB and have one of those cheap rotary mills.)

I never call my beers clones, I prefer "in the style of." I too taste my grains, as brewing is a type of cooking and I like to blend the flavours and aromas of the ingredients I have to produce the flavour I want. I will probably never win a competition, because I think my perfected beers are far better than the hipster ***** you get in bars, at a small fraction of the price, but probably wouldn't be considered correct for the style...

My first Pilsner for example, won't be correct for the style, as I will balance the flavour of the JW malt probably with a little carapils and maybe a touch of Gladfields toffee (only a mere hint, mind you, and I will taste the malts I have on hand again before deciding on what to actually use.)