Help. Sodium Metasilicate in beer

[Zorco]

PIN number 0034

 

[MHB]

Are you sure about this?
It is used for other reasons but does not help saponify fats and oils for soap
you need sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide to make soap
don't believe everything you read
and yes i am a soap maker
lyrebird_cycles might want to join a soap forum and sprout off there
edit make to maker

Nifty, When talking about chemistry terms like Saponify and make soap, aren't really the same. True soap making is a subset of saponification, like a camp fire is a subset of Oxidisation process, but so are rusting, launching rockets and some flavour changes in beer.
Chemically it is quite accurate to describe rusting as burning very slowly, likewise Metasilicate will saponify lipids.
Mark

 

[niftinev]

it is used as a builder in soap to soften hard water and stabilise ph, but will not make soap

it does though help the soaps cleaning ability

When soap is used in "hard" water, it will be precipitated as a "bath-tub ring" by calcium or magnesium ions present in the "hard" water. The effects of "hard" water calcium or magnesium ions decrease with the addition of "builders". The most common "builder" is sodium trimetaphosphate. The phosphates react with the calcium or magnesium ions thus keeping them in solution but away from the soap molecule. The soap molecule can then do its job without interference from calcium or magnesium ions. Other "builders" include sodium carbonate, borax, and sodium silicate, which are currently in detergents.

copied above paragraph from wiki

see link below for further information
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Structural_Biochemistry/Lipids/Soap

 

[niftinev]

MHB

you may be right in what you say but

it's used in washing poswders for instance because it will react with fats and modify them to soap.*

.

Just clarifying this statement. This it does not do

edit; further infrmation http://chemistry.elmhurst.edu/vchembook/554soap.html

 

[mtb]

Qualifications vs Wikibooks. WHO WILL WIN!

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

If you read the PDF linked in the reference I gave in post # 60, it says in part:

The alkalinity provided by Metso Sodium Metasilicate ... saponifies fatty soil which makes them readily dissolvable. The saponified fatty soil acts as a soap

 

[niftinev]

Lyrebird

i did read the link you posted.

Doesn't mean i have to believe everything a manufacturer says about their products

 

[bradsbrew]

Lyrebird

i did read the link you posted.

Doesn't mean i have to believe everything a manufacturer says about their products

I agree. Stupid technical data sheets and material safety data sheets, WTF would the manufacturer know about their products. Might just go see all my trainers and tell them to throw out all the TDS and MSDS folders. May as well throw out all the JSA's as well.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

mmmm yes and no.

Not all the tests under all the conditions have been conducted for all materials. That's why things are updated as new information comes to hand.

Let's just say companies like Monsanto have and do refer to their own data. . .. but when you ask them for same data when you are doing a literature review, they say "sorry but that data is not publicly available".

 

[manticle]

I agree. Stupid technical data sheets and material safety data sheets, WTF would the manufacturer know about their products. Might just go see all my trainers and tell them to throw out all the TDS and MSDS folders. May as well throw out all the JSA's as well.

SWMS

 

[niftinev]

yes you have to believe everything a manufacturer or producer says or claims about their about their products both now, and in the future they will always care for you first

edit; and no one has ever had their butt kicked for telling porky pies

 

[niftinev]

Qualifications vs Wikibooks. WHO WILL WIN!

my qualifications are indisputable

phd in biophysics from the company offering passports, birth certificates, uni degrees etc. on the forum this morning

 

[niftinev]

shit where's the Topic gone so i can get what i want

c'mon guys i need the degree and a new passport

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

OK, let's take a solution of sodium metasilicate and add it to an ordinary fat, (glycerol triacylate). The acyl groups can be anything you want but let's make them stearate.

Since this is a chemistry lesson we'll take a low concentration of metasilicate solution, say 1%, which will have a pH of about 12.6. This is equivalent to hydroxyl ion concentration of ~40 mM. The concentration of sodium ions will also be around 40 mM (assuming 50% dissociation).

Let's just consider one of the ester bridges for now, since they are all similar they'll all react the same way.

At a pH of 12.6 the hydroxyl ions will attack the carbonyl group of the ester, producing an orthoester, which is unstable so it will spontaneously break down to an alkoxide and the carboxylic acid (stearic acid).

The stearic acid will donate a proton to the alkoxide, giving a stearate ion and an alcohol (when this happens to all three ester bridges the remnant alcohol is glycerol but we aren't much interested in byproducts at this stage).

Sodium ion + stearate ion = sodium stearate.

Sodium stearate is a soap.

 

[niftinev]

lyrebird

I understand most of what you say post 74

my opologies for questioning you

 

[Rorschach]

Hey all
Read page 1 and then skipped to the end in the interests of time and keeping it on topic so it might have already been answered.

While we're on about quals, I've got a PhD in Chemistry and work in specialty chemical manufacturing. We also use Sodium Metasilicate and Sodium Metabisulfite as raw materials so I have access to SDS etc. and experience handling them

Firstly, oral toxicity of Sodium Metasilicate is 800mg/kg in rats so assuming you weight ~80kg, you'd need to ingest 64g before this becomes an issue.
Secondly, if you're not sure what it is make up a solution and gently breathe in some of the vapour by wafting it towards you with your hand. If it takes your breath away (literally, it's an oxygen scavenger) and makes you sneeze it's Metabisulfite. I know this firsthand as we make 45% solutions of the stuff and it's potent.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

I think the mechanism by which it takes your breath away is irritation rather than oxygen scavenging. The SO2 released by the bisulphite dissolves into the liquid on the surfaces in the respiratory system as sulphurous acid. The body reacts to this irritant pretty quickly, the symptoms can be a lot like asthma.

Sensitivity varies between individuals, I happen to be fairly sensitive; if I get a decent whiff of it I can't breathe for a couple of minutes. Since I work with it a lot as part of what I do for a living this can be a problematic but it hasn't killed me yet.

 

[manticle]

They have things called 'masks' nowadays LC

 

[Zorco]

The more minds the better.... chemistry types and brewing hey?

Who would have guessed.

Quite a lot was covered; but your consensus and debate is valuable.

Interesting test recommendation. Can we hold up a rat and watch him inhale instead?

 

[Zorco]

lyrebird

I understand most of what you say post 74

my opologies for questioning you

We have real men here on AHB it seems.