Help. Sodium Metasilicate in beer

[Droopy Brew]

SO I fucker up. I was reading up on sodium metalbisulfate to knock chloramines out of the water. So I added 1/4 tsp to my 70l of strike and sparge water. Problem is that is dawned on me this morning that what I thought was metabisulphate is probably metasilicate.

So what effect will this amount of metasilicate effect my yeast or beer? Will it be safe to drink at these levels?

Fingers Xd.

 

[peteru]

Will it leave your insides clean or will you bleed? Good question. Sometimes it's best to cut your loses early.

 

[Mardoo]

Yep, guts are guts, beer is beer, one is much easier to make more of.

And may I offer a word in support of clear labelling. As well, it's a good idea to keep the MSDS on hand for the chemicals you use. They're easy to find with a google search.

 

[Droopy Brew]

Yes labeling is definitely in need of attention.

I'm not prepared to dump 40 L of good beer unnecessarily. We are talking approx 1ppm of a base compound.

If it is a dangerous level then I will bite the bullet and tip it but I will wait for someone with the chemical expertise to comment before making that decision.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the reply and understand the precautionary principle you are working on but seeking some facts from those in the know.

The peroxide debate in the O2 thread indicates that a proportionately larger amount of a very oxidative substance is fine for consumption, if not necessarily agreed on as a best practice.

 

[GalBrew]

It's not 'good beer' if it's got hazardous chemicals in it though is it? I would tip
It personally, why risk it over a double batch of homebrew?

 

[mofox1]

Difference here is that peroxide (assuming hydrogen peroxide) will decompose to water and oxygen... I do not know what effect the small amount of sodium metasilicate will have in the beer.

 

[Droopy Brew]

Is it a hazardous chemical in that dosage?
Phosphoric acid is a hazardous chemical but many a good beer has been made with it present in solution (sanitiser).

My subsequent reading has found that sodium silicate is in fact used in the beer and wine industry as a flocculant (fining agent). While I haven't found a dosage rate as yet I strongly suspect it is higher than what is in this beer.

Again, Im looking for some answers based on facts rather than assumptions something might be bad from those that simply dont know. Sorry if that seems harsh.

 

[GalBrew]

I also had a look and I'm not sure that data you need exists. Try getting ethics approval to work out the concentration of sodium metasilicate in beer required to corrode your GI tract. Anyway it's your call.....

 

[Droopy Brew]

If coca cola can get ethics approval Im sure I can

 

[manticle]

You have the same buying power as Coca cola- amatil?

 

[Zorco]

In terms of the chemistry minds I've watched here we have,

Lyrebird_Cycles
MHB
Klangers

They will help you if they value the question enough.

But as for deduction... I start here

http://docs.redox.com/sds/3555.Pdf

It is identified as toxic
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Sodium_metasilicate#section=Top

Can be used as a paint stripper


https://mistralni.co.uk/products/sodium-metasilicate-pentahydrate

At that concentration...?

Evidence of mutation (silicate) in offspring at low concentrations

http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/15981734

Metasilicate as food grade

*extract from the above

However, because these ingredients have limited dermal absorption and Sodium Metasilicate is a GRAS direct food substance, the Panel deemed the ingredients safe for use in cosmetic products in the practices of use and concentration described in this safety assessment, when formulated to avoid irritation



Good question though.

Hope this response helps your enquiries.

 

[peteru]

Based on your first post, I was under the impression that you were at the stage where it was just the treated water that was affected. Dumping it would have just delayed your brewing without wasting any ingredients.

If you already have a fermenting beer, you might as well let it finish. That should give you some time to do the research and if you are satisfied that consuming it at that dilution rate is something you are prepared to do, give it a taste test. It may be that your taste buds will tell you straight away that it should go down the drain. Or not.

BTW: I also suspect that silicate and metasilicate are sufficiently different that you can not draw any conclusions about the usage of one, based on the other.

 

[Zorco]

Read the paper, it covers a range of chemicals

My instinct is that it might be safe and worth researching.

 

[Droopy Brew]

Thanks Zorco. I will give the others a read when time permits but noticed the last link mentions sodium metasilicate is a GRAS (generally regarded as safe) for food production.

Pete, the taste test from yesterday's gravity reading passed with flying colours. This morning's stool sample seemed to be solid and well formed too so I think gastrologically I'm good to go. But will certainly do some more reading.

The main concern now is for yeast health and activity. I guess I should know in the next 12 hours (it has been about 18 ) if the micros are happy.

 

[RobW]

This is from the material data safety sheet:

Potential Acute Health Effects: Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive), of eye contact (corrosive). The amount of tissue damage depends on length of contact. Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness. Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering. Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing and coughing. Severe overexposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death. Inflammation of the eye is characterized by redness, watering, and itching. Skin inflammation is characterized by itching, scaling, reddening, or, occasionally, blistering.

Potential Chronic Health Effects: p. 2 CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available. The substance may be toxic to mucous membranes, skin, eyes. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage. Repeated exposure of the eyes to a low level of dust can produce eye irritation. Repeated skin exposure can produce local skin destruction, or dermatitis. Repeated inhalation of dust can produce varying degree of respiratory irritation or lung damage.

 

[drsmurto]

SO I fucker up. I was reading up on sodium metalbisulfate to knock chloramines out of the water. So I added 1/4 tsp to my 70l of strike and sparge water. Problem is that is dawned on me this morning that what I thought was metabisulphate is probably metasilicate.

So what effect will this amount of metasilicate effect my yeast or beer? Will it be safe to drink at these levels?

Fingers Xd.

Do you actually know what it is that you added? Are you storing chemicals in unlabelled containers? That's a particularly lax approach to safety, I hope you don't have any kids who can access your brewing area.

A teaspoon is a volume measurement so I don't know how much in grams you have added but assuming a few grams in 70L you probably won't do any harm to yourself. It's not a particularly hazardous substance when in a dilute solution. Concentrated solutions (alkaline, or acidic if you are Pete Evans) or the powder itself can be corrosive.

 

[Zorco]

The underlying detail of significance is really this above. I noticed a LOT of people use contractions for the names of their chemicals, MET, PERC..... The former being a lousy instance of this lingual desire of ours.

Probably not fair of Smurto to assert that you're using unlabelled containers, I've found the MET thing to be more widely adopted and the cause of confusion. Ink is cheap, big text, all the letters, drawing skulls and crossbones is fun so add them too.

 

[niftinev]

turf it, not worth the risk, life is short

 

[Droopy Brew]

turf it, not worth the risk, life is short

Based on what evidence? I should discount the scientific papers Zorco presented because life is short? Nah think I'll side with the science.

The underlying detail of significance is really this above. I noticed a LOT of people use contractions for the names of their chemicals, MET, PERC..... The former being a lousy instance of this lingual desire of ours.

Probably not a fair of Smurto to assert that you're using unlabelled containers, I've found the MET thing to be more widely adopted and the cause of confusion. Ink is cheap, big text, all the letters, drawing skulls and crossbones is fun so add them too.

Unfortunately he is right. It wasn't labelled, it was something I used to wash the gear with and the only powder on the shelf hence the lack of labeling. Bit me in the arse didn't it? Lesson learnt.

All that stuff is kept out of reach of the kids, little buggers wouldn't read the label anyway, hence the vertical barrier.

 

[MHB]

Ok lets say it isn't a recommended ingredient but 1/4 tsp in 70L isn't any whare near the sort of amount to be a worry.
Sodium Metasilicate combines with CO2 fairly rapidly and forms an insoluble glass like matrix, the LD-50 is over 1g/kg of body weight.
I would taste the beer and go from there.
Mark

PS good to label and use chemicals properly!
M