Head Space In A Cube

[vlbaby]

I've recently started to do my secondary/lagering/cc'ing in plastic cubes, and I have a concern about the potential for oxidisation using these containers. Typically when I would rack a brew to this container I would squeeze the sides to purge out the air and then lock the lid. However, sometimes this is impossible because the volume of beer does not come anywhere close to the capacity of the container. Is it necessary to have all of the air in the container displaced or is it really not that important?
I would like to know if other brewers who have been doing a similar thing have ever experienced oxidisation in their beers.

cheers

vl.

 

[barfridge]

Don't stress too much. There's always CO2 in the fermented beer, and some of this comes out of solution during racking, so you end up with a nice CO2 blanket over the beer.

So while the less headspace the better, it isnt going to ruin your beer.

 

[Pumpy]

I may be totally wrong Vlbaby but I always thought that if the beer is still producing CO2 and cold it will not Oxidise

Pumpy

 

[vlbaby]

well maybe I rack to 2ndry too late, but the cube never really expands back out to original size even when the lid is locked tight. I know that the temperature will have an effect on total volume, and even if there is enough co2 produced, it still is not enough to expand the container out to the original dimensions. I figure then, that all of the air that I originally trapped inside the cube is still there.

Maybe I should rack earlier so there is still some co2 production?

vl.

 

[Pumpy]

Vlbaby ,

I have not been bothering much with secondary these days just filtering and into the kegs may be it is more suited to the styles I have been brewing .

Theory being the quicker into the kegs the less worry about oxidisation .

Pumpy

 

[vlbaby]

do you do lagers that way too pumpy or just ales?

 

[Pumpy]

Sorry Vlbaby I didn't notice it was a lager you were doing have only made five lagers all very nice but tie up the fermenting fridge for too long ,I suppose you could lager them in the keg I only have two kegs , I have not given it a try ,you have to get rid of that diacetly which is no such a big deal .

I do like Lagers suprised what good results you can get and they taste great when you make them .

Pumpy

 

[vlbaby]

I'm not necesarily having issues with just lagers pumpy. I actually treat my ales and lagers to fairly much the same treatment after primary ferment is finished. Thats why I asked the question, because maybe I go overboard with my ales.
BTW I havent noticed any "off" flavors to my beers so far using the cubes, but I dont want to find them later down the track if I'm not doing it right.

vl.

 

[Pumpy]

Vlaby , I usedto the same to my ales and had them in secondary for sometimes a month ,

I have found with my English ales that 7-10 day into the kegs has been a good policy , I had problems when I bottled and left for extended period ,I never bottle now .

Pumpy

 

[matti]

I had the same concerns a while back.
Providing you racked it "silently" I.e. no aeration and airlocked it properly, either with airlock+bung or tight lid, there should be no concerns.
After the diacetyl rest I racked mine to second and allowed it to ferment out to 1 sg unit above expected FG and lagering there at -2 for 4 weeks.
I have an airlock on and it has had released CO2 for 2-3 weeks post lowering the temp. on its last week now and then bottling time.
The more often you rack the more likely for error and this is only my 2nd lager and first partial. Didn't want to mess anymore then neccesary.
Only CC my ales for max two weeks in secondary never had a worry with them.
Good for clearing and more time for fining to take hold
Matti

 

[homebrewworld.com]

Vlbaby,
A good question i recon.

I've recently started to do my secondary/lagering/cc'ing in plastic cubes, and I have a concern about the potential for oxidisation using these containers. Typically when I would rack a brew to this container I would squeeze the sides to purge out the air and then lock the lid. However, sometimes this is impossible because the volume of beer does not come anywhere close to the capacity of the container. Is it necessary to have all of the air in the container displaced or is it really not that important?

I have had some OXIDISATION dramas with my brews of late. (excluding all other dramas)
I have concern for the way i transfer to secondry or keg. I try my utmost best to avoid any splash/oxygenation , but yep it still shines through in my final beer.

I am working at my technique at all times. When i store in a cube i also squeeze the container but often wonder to what avail? 'Cardboard aroma present "
Hot side airation is the next obvious with my RIMS, but no........i avoid that too !!

Maybe i just have a bit of cardboard stuck up my nose ?

 

[kirem]

Plastic is sufficiently porous to allow oxidation.

 

[Pumpy]

I've recently started to do my secondary/lagering/cc'ing in plastic cubes, and I have a concern about the potential for oxidisation using these containers. Typically when I would rack a brew to this container I would squeeze the sides to purge out the air and then lock the lid. However, sometimes this is impossible because the volume of beer does not come anywhere close to the capacity of the container. Is it necessary to have all of the air in the container displaced or is it really not that important?
I would like to know if other brewers who have been doing a similar thing have ever experienced oxidisation in their beers.

cheers

vl.

I suppose another option Vlbaby is to squirt a blanket of CO2 into you plastic cubes .


Pumpy

 

[Stuster]

Maybe i just have a bit of cardboard stuck up my nose ?

:lol: :lol:

Clearly the answer. :super:

 

[peter]

G,day all
Interesting topic, i was wondering about a few things
I rack straight into a plastic 20L jerry can from primary, then leave this at my fermenting temp. for another couple of days. Every day I crack the lid to release the pressure, after the couple of days It goes staight into the fridge for cc,ing.
would it be better to fit an airlock on the lid of the jerry to allow the beer to breathe its gases off,and purge any air in the head space ,or am I suffocating the beer as it is still in its final stages of fermentation?
Is it like 'the fart in an elevator ' theory?

 

[matti]

Peter,
Releasing the pressure ought to be enough. same as purging.

Vlbaby
The cardboard flavour could also be due from long light exposure and/or poor yeast. Made an oz-extract bitter with the yeast provide under lid. I did rehydrate it and followed proper steps and found the beer a tad bland compared to using a safale yeast stored in refrigerators.
Plastic is porous but should not affect your beer in agood quality jerry cans.
Matti
Smaken e' som baken, Delad!

 

[Pumpy]

I had the same concerns a while back.
Providing you racked it "silently" I.e. no aeration and airlocked it properly, either with airlock+bung or tight lid, there should be no concerns.
After the diacetyl rest I racked mine to second and allowed it to ferment out to 1 sg unit above expected FG and lagering there at -2 for 4 weeks.
I have an airlock on and it has had released CO2 for 2-3 weeks post lowering the temp. on its last week now and then bottling time.
The more often you rack the more likely for error and this is only my 2nd lager and first partial. Didn't want to mess anymore then neccesary.
Only CC my ales for max two weeks in secondary never had a worry with them.
Good for clearing and more time for fining to take hold
Matti

Agree entirely Matti

Dont you find if you put an airlock in the plastic containers it is difficult to pick up as it suckes all the sanitiser stuff out of the airlock

Pumpy

 

[vlbaby]

I suppose another option Vlbaby is to squirt a blanket of CO2 into you plastic cubes .


Pumpy

This is actually what i have been doing, but I have wondered if it is really needed or not.

The other option I have considered is to completely fill the cube with 'no rinse' sanitiser and back fill with co2 as I drain the sanitiser out the tap. That way the cube should be completely filled with co2 before adding the beer.
But I must confess these ideas seem a little extreme even for me. Maybe I'm worrying over nothing.

vl.

 

[Pumpy]

I suppose another option Vlbaby is to squirt a blanket of CO2 into you plastic cubes .


Pumpy

This is actually what i have been doing, but I have wondered if it is really needed or not.

The other option I have considered is to completely fill the cube with 'no rinse' sanitiser and back fill with co2 as I drain the sanitiser out the tap. That way the cube should be completely filled with co2 before adding the beer.
But I must confess these ideas seem a little extreme even for me. Maybe I'm worrying over nothing.

vl.

Vlbaby I sometimes feel it is some of those little things we do , that seem a bit of a pain ,that can improve or make the difference to the quality of our beer .

What your doing gives you peace of mind , I suppose it depends how long you haveyour beer 'kicking around' .

I found that by getting it into the kegs in 7-10 days and this involves filtering there are less problems .



Pumpy

Pumpy

 

[Ross]

Vlbaby,

I've lagered for 3 months+ in plastic cubes with plenty of headspace - never had an oxidation problem.
These days though I'm more likely to filter/keg/carbonate largers after just a week or so. I've found they improve much faster in the keg. Got an Oktoberfest & Bohemium Pils on tap at the moment - less than a week lagering before hitting the keg - 1 week in the keg & tasting great...

cheers Ross