Got To Be Airborne, Right?

[Goofinder]

Yeah, but the point is that No Chilling is a defined process that involves not chilling in a sealed vessel with no/minimal headspace and contacting all surfaces with wort hot enough to kill most bugs. Running hot wort into a container, covering it up and waiting until it cools is not the same thing.

I've done both, and my usual No Chill vessel doesn't actually seal properly so I don't leave it that long and haven't had any problems. However if you're not following the 'official' No Chill method I reckon it's a place to start looking at - either actually chilling or doing 'official' No Chill.

 

[altstart]

Yeah, but the point is that No Chilling is a defined process that involves not chilling in a sealed vessel with no/minimal headspace and contacting all surfaces with wort hot enough to kill most bugs. Running hot wort into a container, covering it up and waiting until it cools is not the same thing.

I've done both, and my usual No Chill vessel doesn't actually seal properly so I don't leave it that long and haven't had any problems. However if you're not following the 'official' No Chill method I reckon it's a place to start looking at - either actually chilling or doing 'official' No Chill.

I have no problem with you doing it your way but me Ill do it my way.
Cheers Altstart

 

[manticle]

I have an infection that pops up every so often that I think must be related to flowering plants or other wild yeast. Similar to yours - beer looks OK but tastes odd - bread and grass is the best description, and the same flavour no matter what beer, hop or yeast.

To limit the chance your possible similar predator has of taking hold, try buying a brand new cube, sanitise it very well, no chill into it, then add a pack of dry yeast straight to the cube when cooled and ferment in there. Back the lid off a few turns so it doesn't swell/explode.

Little *******'s popped its head up again in my ESB I brewed recently. Flavour is unmistakeable.

I'd love to nail it down. It's happened in Spring, Summer and Autumn. The cube it's in is fairly new and the last beer fermented in it (I ferment in my no chill cubes without transferring most of the time) came out spectacularly. I regularly use sodium met, cold rinse, boiling water rinse, followed by starsan. Everything is cleaned with boiling water and napisan and chlorine bleach is sometimes used prior to sodium met (which is then rinsed and rinsed again with boiling water). Scratching my head.

All taps cleaned and sanitised (fermenter and kettle) as are transfer hoses. Presumably some kind of wild yeast has infected my starter but no noticeable smell when I pitched. It's disappointing to say the least. I have plenty of other beer fermenting/conditioning etc but depressing nonetheless.

Hope you sort out your issue JS.

 

[gone_fishing]

Wild yeast or "off" hops I would suggest.

Is it the same batch of hops or purchases of small amounts of different hops?

GF

 

[manticle]

If you're asking me - different hops in most circumstances (different beers), different suppliers in some.

First happened in a pilsner a couple of years ago - has since happened with altbiers, english bitters and others.

I have also used the same hops (as in same packet) successfully in other beers.

 

[gone_fishing]

Same hops worked well at first then "suddenly" strange taste?
Nasty hops do a good job at ruining good beer.
Wild yeast will do it too!!
GF
PS: Anyone else ever notice how an over-dose of the wrong type or stale hops can taste like wild yeast infection?

 

[manticle]

No this has been going on for several years. 1 in 5 batches (or less) show this character, regardless of hops. Hops get used again, no issue. If I get the infected character, I chuck the fermenter/cube (only time I've had two in a row was trying to re-use).

Most of my hops are from ellerslie farm, this or last year's crop, kept in the freezer and used regularly. I'd bet my mash tun it's not the hops. I've had the same infection with home grown ones used a week after picking too.

 

[gone_fishing]

Chill or no-chill?
GF

 

[manticle]

Mainly no-chill but the first time it appeared was a chilled batch. I've also chilled and no chilled many a batch that come out great in between each one.

It's really hard to find a common point in each brew that's shown this. Equipment, sanitation, ingredients and even some methods have all been different.

Same premises though which leads me towards some micro-organism that lives around the place.

 

[gone_fishing]

Do you ferment your no-chill the next morning or store for "a coupladays" before fermenting?
GF

 

[DoctorBob]

I'm struggling with a recurring, persistent, frustrating beer quality problem which I believe is an infection in my beer.

I am losing almost 3 in 5 beers to an infection that presents as a sour/off aroma and stripped out hop flavour and aroma that leaves the beer with an increased or amplified bitterness.

The beer looks quite good normal really reasonably clear, good head retention and carbonation (I keg and force carb) and in some cases is quite drinkable - if I imagine I'm drinking a saison/farmhouse (its a stretch). However, its nothing like the mainly pale ales that I'm hoping to brew.

I've been battling this for over 12 months now! I've followed much of the advice I've found on this site and others that says to replace any plastic, change sanitisers, use only stainless and glass, aerate with filtered air, purge with CO2 etc, etc, etc.

All I've left to do is ferment off-site (which a mate is doing for me), or use completely "closed fermentation", but I'm hopeful there is someone out there who this rings a bell for and who maybe has some suggestions.

I need to add that this "infection" has happened with both AG and kits. Everything seems okay going into the fermenter (pet better bottle which I purge with CO2), the fermentation appears normal and wort doesn't have obvious signs of infection (glad wrap and rubber band over neck of fermenter). But the sour aroma is noticeable at transfer to the keg still there after force carbonation and even after months of aging.

And then I'll brew a couple that are spot on??!

It's doing my head in!!! Please advise! :blink:

It sounds like exactly the problem I had. A year of kits / extrat went well then soon after I started AG problems just like yours stated.I tried allsorts, such as eliminating the use of a plate chiller that was number one suspect, cleaning everything, boiling everything, wasking everything in bleach. No improvement!

With some advice from Ross at craftbrewer I finally tracked it to the outlet valve on the kettle. I had always assumed this would be ok as it would be hot enough to kill anything. WRONG! Despite washing and rinsing carefully when I finally got round to opening it up there were things growing in it!! I would recommend stripping your kettle valve every batch. I clean my ss kettle with PBW every bx, then rinse with v dilute phosphoric acid too (1.5ml in a litre of water), just to ensure the metal is repassivated. I then dismantle the valve and clean with a mini bottle brush. I also clean the pick up on my kettle this way.

I also found that you can split the plastic valves that screw into the outlet of plastic fermenters. Just grab the tap with some pliers, and the valve will come apart. I had some mild growth in there also. I now do this every batch, and have had no problems since.

Good Luck

 

[gone_fishing]

Do you clean your boiler tap?

Pediococcus sp. are reasonably heat resistant. It is possible it is your boiler tap.

GF

EDIT: Or your mash tun/false bottom/taps

 

[manticle]

Do you ferment your no-chill the next morning or store for "a coupladays" before fermenting?
GF

Almost every one is pitched the next day (in the morning before work).

Ocassionally if a starter hasn't taken off, I've take some extra days but again there's no link - most of those take off uninfected.

Boiler tap is removed after every brew, cleaned with sodium percarb and boiling water, rinsed and sanitised.

Mash tun is a copper manifold which gets pulled apart each brew and tun often gets a sodium percarb dose and some starsan.

Again, if it was the tap or tun or whatever, I would expect the infection in every brew, not 1 in 5 or 10.

Doesn't peddicoccus taste a bit like poo?

The flavour of my infection is bread and grass.

 

[gone_fishing]

Ah, bread and grass.

Bread from dry yeast.

Grass from over-judicial use of hops.

RU making the same recipe each time or drawing conclusions from several different recipes?

GF

 

[altstart]

It sounds like exactly the problem I had. A year of kits / extrat went well then soon after I started AG problems just like yours stated.I tried allsorts, such as eliminating the use of a plate chiller that was number one suspect, cleaning everything, boiling everything, wasking everything in bleach. No improvement!

With some advice from Ross at craftbrewer I finally tracked it to the outlet valve on the kettle. I had always assumed this would be ok as it would be hot enough to kill anything. WRONG! Despite washing and rinsing carefully when I finally got round to opening it up there were things growing in it!! I would recommend stripping your kettle valve every batch. I clean my ss kettle with PBW every bx, then rinse with v dilute phosphoric acid too (1.5ml in a litre of water), just to ensure the metal is repassivated. I then dismantle the valve and clean with a mini bottle brush. I also clean the pick up on my kettle this way.

I also found that you can split the plastic valves that screw into the outlet of plastic fermenters. Just grab the tap with some pliers, and the valve will come apart. I had some mild growth in there also. I now do this every batch, and have had no problems since.

Good Luck

I totally agree with this it demonstrates that the valve on the kettle needs to be stripped every batch. It is so easy to believe that boiling wort in the kettle is hot enough to sterilise the valve when in fact it wont and if you are unfortunate to have this take hold in your system it will infect batch after batch.
Cheers Altstart

 

[Tim F]

Yeah, but the point is that No Chilling is a defined process that involves not chilling in a sealed vessel with no/minimal headspace and contacting all surfaces with wort hot enough to kill most bugs. Running hot wort into a container, covering it up and waiting until it cools is not the same thing.

I 'no chill' a standard batch into a 30L cube, seal with the lid, get hot wort on all surfaces, cool overnight then aerate by shaking, pitch, replace lid with gladwrap and ferment in the cube. Workin for me so far

 

[manticle]

I rarely use dry yeast. US-5 is the only dry yeast I use and I don't use it often. My regular beer that uses a USyeast uses 1272 more often.

I'm not a fan of overhopped beer.

I can tell the difference.

This has happened when making successful recipes (as in previously successfully made recipes by me on the same equipment with the same methods) again exactly the same way

 

[gone_fishing]

Manticle,

I would suggest sealing your system (ie no exposure to air prior to ferment). I would also suggest having another go at "chilling" your beer as you report only one infection with chilling and numerous with no-chill. Good chance you have a heat resistant "bug" harbouring in your cubes.
gf

 

[manticle]

Manticle,

I would suggest sealing your system (ie no exposure to air prior to ferment). I would also suggest having another go at "chilling" your beer as you report only one infection with chilling and numerous with no-chill. Good chance you have a heat resistant "bug" harbouring in your cubes.
gf

GF: I wish it were that simple. It's happened with more than one chilled beer -it's just that the first time it appeared the beer was chilled.

I throw away any cube that exhibits this infection so any heat resistant bug should be thrown away with it. I also sanitise my cubes the same way I sanitise anything else. I don't just rely on boiling wort to do it.

I do have plans to chill a few to compare variations in aroma and bitterness. The problem is though that because it might be one in five or one in eight or one in ten brews that exhibits this character, a change in method doesn't prove much. If I had access to a lab to test the microorganisms, I could then test my equipment and maybe home surfaces and get an understanding of where it might be living. I'm even careful to add chlorine to each infected cube/fermenter before tipping it out to try and reduce the numbers I'm 'releasing into the wild'.

As for reducing the air - I often ferment directly in the no chill cube to cut down the risk of infection due to transfer.

 

[Tim F]

Maybe that's the answer - finding a lab (or a uni student) who will do some analysis. might be easier and cheaper than you think to line up?