Got To Be Airborne, Right?

[manticle]

I'll bottle one from this latest batch and see if I can.

 

[jimmysuperlative]

If I had access to a lab to test the microorganisms, I could then test my equipment and maybe home surfaces and get an understanding of where it might be living.

manticle, this is so what I want to do ...to identify the bug and know what i'm dealing with. Does anyone know who does this sort of stuff?

 

[Steve@PMF82]

The bread and grass flavour is familiar to me recently, my first infected bottles.

APA, 1272 yeast, about 30 bottles worth, they were all really good youngish, except about last 5 bottles.

My bottle fridge is actually an old freezer and when running as a fridge sometimes drops a bit of water here and there.
The ones that were not right, had a bit of rust starting to form up under the cap.

The thing is, they poured the same as the good ones, same carbonation, still looked same, smell was pretty much the same, some
difference i thought was just age, but upon tasting, i got grass in a big way and old bread. Not drinkable at all.

Needless to say i chucked those bottles.

 

[yum beer]

The problem with infections is they start as a microscopic bit of crap that normally doesnt grow till it finds itself in the right temp zone....
normally 16-21c....dead smack in ferment range.
If you have a tiny bit of muck anywhere in your system...even in boiling vessels and it gets into the FV, you will get an infection...
also with the mouse plague on at the moment there is a lot of mouse 'germs' in the air.....Ive lost 4 batches in a row made in the garage...
now brewing in the kitchen and no problems since.

The Glen 20 idea is probably a good one.
Anyway..just a thought.
Best of luck to everybody sorting out your problems...nothing worse than throwing out beer.

 

[Brewman_]

Just another thought..

Not saying this is the solution, but I have had not one infection since doing this extra step, in addition to the other items I mentioned earlier in this post.

For some reason, no idea why I used to make up a 2L cleaning mix of water and Pink Stain to clean my gear and fermenter in the fermenter. I think I was trying to save money by using less pink stain.

After getting all new fermenters, over 2 years ago, what I do now is clean the fermenter with fresh water and a clean rag. Rinse all other gear to remove trub. Then place a clean tap / plug into the fermenter and toss all of the dirty brewing gear in except any SS, with plastic tap disassembled and lid seal ring out, and in the fermenter. I then add half a table spoon of Pink stain and completely fill the fermenter, and normally leave overnight - mainly because I finish late and don't want to wait around to rinse. Give the whole thing a good shake, and the pink stain solution will cover everything. You could leave it for less time, and could use another cleaner too.

Maybe everyone does this already? But I didn't. My old fermenters used to have some brown striping on them where the cleaner had cleaned and missed spots. Now they are completely white with no stains and no infections. So far so good.

Edit, spelling

Fear_n_Loath

 

[davewaldo]

Has anybody mentioned a wort stability test? I was listening to a BBR podcast with David Logsdon from wyeast and he mentioned this test as a good way to track down infections.

A helpful test to help identify at what stage infection is appearing is the wort stability test. Essentially you just take a sample of wort at one stage of your process and place it in a very well sanitised container (ie flask) and seal it up. If there is an infection it will show its ugly head, if the wort stays fresh for 3-4 days the wort was healthy at that stage of your process. You don't add yeast so the infection should take hold quite easily if there is one.

So people trying to track down where infections are coming from could take one sample of hot wort, then another after chilling. Or if no chilling, one sample from kettle and another fresh from the cube at pitching time.

If all of these prove to be uncontaminated the infection must be occurring in the fermenter.

I thought this was a very good idea and a simple way of telling if you have infections that may be subtle and hard to identify in a fermented beer.

Good luck!

Dave.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Has anybody mentioned a wort stability test? I was listening to a BBR podcast with David Logsdon from wyeast and he mentioned this test as a good way to track down infections.

A helpful test to help identify at what stage infection is appearing is the wort stability test. Essentially you just take a sample of wort at one stage of your process and place it in a very well sanitised container (ie flask) and seal it up. If there is an infection it will show its ugly head, if the wort stays fresh for 3-4 days the wort was healthy at that stage of your process. You don't add yeast so the infection should take hold quite easily if there is one.

So people trying to track down where infections are coming from could take one sample of hot wort, then another after chilling. Or if no chilling, one sample from kettle and another fresh from the cube at pitching time.

If all of these prove to be uncontaminated the infection must be occurring in the fermenter.

I thought this was a very good idea and a simple way of telling if you have infections that may be subtle and hard to identify in a fermented beer.

Good luck!

Dave.

This is such a simple logical idea. Good stuff Dave and Dave....

I have not had a problem with infections, except the thing with a few bottles as mentioned above.

But, just out of interest i thought id take a small amount of chilled wort and seal it up in very well santized jar.
The jar is alredy very clean, it already gets used for finnings and priming.
I boiled it, then star san, then rinsed in boiling water twice.
When it was cool i opened briefly and put a small amount of wort in.
Im just going to let sit by the computer and see how long it takes for it to spoil.

 

[jimmysuperlative]

That's where I'm up to, red. Got a batch at a mates in his gear on the go ...so it's wait and see. I just handed him the cube full of fresh wort, didn't even go with him to his place ...so i hope it goes good for him. Although, because my results can be hit and miss anyway, I'm not sure what it can really tell me if it ends up a good beer. It would be a better result for me if the beer was *****, at least that puts the problem at pre-fermenter?

I appreciate your thoughts. :icon_cheers:

Results from mates fermenter suggest the trouble is at my end ...beer at his end was as it should be, close to style and wonderful malt & hop taste and aroma. Maybe it tells me that the problem is after the kettle and cube at least? Anyway, it's good to know I can produce a decent beer. Just wish it was sitting in my fridge

 

[eamonnfoley]

You would think it is least likely that an infection could take hold as late as the bottling/kegging stage - but I've experienced something similar myself in the past. Beer is tasting great out of the fermenter - and goes downhill immediately once packaged, despite which keg, or in bottle etc. But it isn't a obvious infection (not sour at all), its more of a rough bitterness and "sameness", regardless of the recipe. Like the malt and hop character is stripped away.

Good luck. Its a tough problem - I never knew exactly what it was or how I got over it. No taster could identify it (everyone said it wasnt an infection). I reckon tap water PH, chlorine etc, and the effectiveness of sanitiser when mixed with it has something to do with it. For example my starsan mix always has an odour, despite people claiming it should be odourless. I now mix sanitisers with RO water, or at least filtered water.

 

[jimmysuperlative]

... But it isn't a obvious infection (not sour at all), its more of a rough bitterness and "sameness", regardless of the recipe. Like the malt and hop character is stripped away...

foles! That's exactly the problem I have to greater and lesser degrees! I'm looking at all (an any) possible causes and "quality control" of water used in mixing sanitisers just became another issue to address. I'm glad you posted!

 

[jimmysuperlative]

So, latest batch is a Punk IPA no-chilled about 2 months ago. No obvious infection with cube going into fermenter. Pitched ale yeast and fermented at 20C for 7 days. Transferred to secondary and currently dry hopping. Not patting myself on the back just yet, but it's looking promising.

I didn't use starsan (due to concerns about its effectiveness in high pH water -supply is @ 7 ...and I couldn't guarantee the B&G bottled spring water I had was any better) and instead used bottled water and iodophor.

I also gave all gear a bleach/vinegar soak @ no-rinse ratio of 30/30ml to 20L of water.

At transfer to secondary, beer smells and tastes spot on! No off flavours or aromas! Touch wood! ;-)

So, early days, but could the faults in my brews be the result of an ineffective starsan mix? Could my town water supply be a cause of infection? I would of thought the starsan would wipe out any bug if was in the water to begin with?

Anyway, it was after reading about starsan's limits in high pH water that I had this revelation ...I'd changed up the sanitising regime before, but had always used a spray bottle of starsan made up on tap water to use. I dunno, but maybe I've been "sanitising" without actually using viable starsan???

I'll see how this IPA turns out.

 

[felten]

pH 7 is neutral?

Never heard about starsan being ineffective like that TBH, but if I was concerned I would email fivestar with a water report and see what they say.

 

[TasChris]

Not wanting to be a kill joy but trying to detect where an infection source is by taste is not necassarily that accurate.
An infection source could be right at the start of the process but the taste only becomes noticeable some time and distance down the track.

I do a couple of things to help minimise any infections, most are pretty obvious stuff that we all do

Rotate through a couple of different sanitisers, i use four different ones from time to time
Take every thing apart after each batch,
Special attention to fermenter taps, kettle taps, o rings on fermenters and kegs, dip tubes, in and out posts on kegs, grommets, around and under o ring on keg lid.
Crush no where near fermentation area
Don't use the kitchen for any part of brewing, especially yeast starters ( due to the wife and being the most infected room in the house, toilet included)
Regularly clean fridge, drops of condensation off the fridge ceiling can and will drip into air lock and glad wrap. Hose fridge out and spray inside with exit mold and Glen 20 then starsan and let dry.
Regularly replace taps, hoses and fermenters, o rings, grommets, airlocks especially if cracked, stained or scratched.
Run boiling wort through kettle tap for a few minutes mid boil ( dunno if this helps or hinders)
Boil all water involved with brewing, as I am on tank water, including spray bottle water.
Cover any open fementaion vessels with a clean sanitised soaked towel when filling, racking etc
Minimise exposure to wind while brewing.
Pressure wash kettle every now and then
Wash hands regularly during brew day as I know where they have been

Perhaps try brewing on days when it is raining as less dust etc in the air. This would mean I could only brew on 320 days per year. LOL

All I can think of at the moment
Cheers
Chris

 

[loikar]

Iv'e recently had a few batches of infected brews that sounds similar to what you describe jimmy.
I live in a semi-rural area which is surrounded by paddocks as well as housing estates going up and not far from the ocean, as well as it being quite windy.

I nuked everything in bleach after the first bout and then made 3 good batches, followed by another infection.
I have no doubt it was airborne due to making my sanitation process excessive (as in submerging everything in a 60L bin of sanitiser and covering my mouth with a dust mask when transferring into the fermenter, pitching, dry hopping etc)

I now slow chill in a 23L Jerry that sits in the 60L sanitiser bin with blocks of ice and ferment in the same jerry.

This means the only exposure to the air is when i'm pitching my yeast and dry hopping (I still wear a dust mask just in case any mouth funk gets in).
And the exposure to the elements when doing this is limited by the small opening in the Jerry.

Have made 3 brews since moving to slow-chill and all have been good. Threw away my old fermenters last weekend.

So I would suggest:

Boil
whirlpool hot
dump into jerry, squeeze and seal
drop jerry into chilled water (isomerisation of hops doesn't occur under 75c apparently so you can still keep all your hop additions, but i'm still testing this)
When your ready, open jerry after a spray of Glen20 and pitch yeast.
Ferment out
transfer into keg
carb it up
drink it
repeat​

This seems to be working for me.

HTH

BF

 

[loikar]

Another thing I should add is; Make a yeast starter.
Reducing your lag time between pitching and the yeast taking command in your brew is also beneficial.

 

[jimmysuperlative]

All great posts thanks lads ...and this is not a recent phenomenon for me so I've probably acted on most of the advice given already ...but I was asking questions of my starsan mix, because of some reading I did that suggested that it loses is potency after a pH of about 3 or 4??? I wondered then, if my tap water is always 7+ how I could possibly have an effective sanitiser to begin with ...let alone one that will last for any period of time???

What is everyone else doing for the mix water? I will definitely flick 5 Star Chemicals an email.

Thanks again,

Jimmy

 

[stl]

All great posts thanks lads ...and this is not a recent phenomenon for me so I've probably acted on most of the advice given already ...but I was asking questions of my starsan mix, because of some reading I did that suggested that it loses is potency after a pH of about 3 or 4??? I wondered then, if my tap water is always 7+ how I could possibly have an effective sanitiser to begin with ...let alone one that will last for any period of time???

Even if it seems you are only adding a few drops of StarSan to a whole bunch of water, it should drop the pH of the solution well below 7...

 

[Steve@PMF82]

All great posts thanks lads ...and this is not a recent phenomenon for me so I've probably acted on most of the advice given already ...but I was asking questions of my starsan mix, because of some reading I did that suggested that it loses is potency after a pH of about 3 or 4??? I wondered then, if my tap water is always 7+ how I could possibly have an effective sanitiser to begin with ...let alone one that will last for any period of time???

What is everyone else doing for the mix water? I will definitely flick 5 Star Chemicals an email.

Thanks again,

Jimmy

I remember from the basic brewing radio episode about starsan and bleach/vinegar mix, the maker says that it will last a lot longer = months if you mix with distilled water as it has no salts/mineral to buffer the phos acid of which starsan is mostly.

I use filtered and boiled rainwater pretty much the same as using distilled water.