Got To Be Airborne, Right?

[jimmysuperlative]

Im struggling with a recurring, persistent, frustrating beer quality problem which I believe is an infection in my beer.

I am losing almost 3 in 5 beers to an infection that presents as a sour/off aroma and stripped out hop flavour and aroma that leaves the beer with an increased or amplified bitterness.

The beer looks quite good normal really reasonably clear, good head retention and carbonation (I keg and force carb) and in some cases is quite drinkable - if I imagine Im drinking a saison/farmhouse (its a stretch). However, its nothing like the mainly pale ales that Im hoping to brew.

Ive been battling this for over 12 months now! I've followed much of the advice Ive found on this site and others that says to replace any plastic, change sanitisers, use only stainless and glass, aerate with filtered air, purge with CO2 etc, etc, etc.

All Ive left to do is ferment off-site (which a mate is doing for me), or use completely "closed fermentation", but Im hopeful there is someone out there who this rings a bell for and who maybe has some suggestions.

I need to add that this infection has happened with both AG and kits. Everything seems okay going into the fermenter (pet better bottle which I purge with CO2), the fermentation appears normal and wort doesnt have obvious signs of infection (glad wrap and rubber band over neck of fermenter). But the sour aroma is noticeable at transfer to the keg still there after force carbonation and even after months of aging.

And then Ill brew a couple that are spot on??!

Its doing my head in!!! Please advise! :blink:

 

[O'Henry]

Do you treat your water? Is it mains water? Not saying anything, just wondering...

 

[jimmysuperlative]

[quote name='O'Henry' post='775955' date='May 22 2011, 01:25 PM']Do you treat your water? Is it mains water? Not saying anything, just wondering...[/quote]


I use Five star 5.2 to adjust mash ...then full boil with AG. Even gone the bottled water option for kits. Not discounting anything though!

 

[ekul]

Have you tried nochilling?

I had a run of infections (lost like 5-10 batches in a row i think) which i think was from wild yeast whilst waiting for my immersion chiller to cool my wort. I went to nochill so that bugs couldn't get into my brew whilst cooling, haven't had an infection since.

If i were you i'd try this if you haven't already.

EDITED- You can get these kits for turning a 50L keg into a fermenter. If you did this (and the keg still holds pressure) you could sterilise the keg by boiling water in it under pressure. Then you could fill the keg with your hot wort and let it cool slowly. You'd reckon that there would be nothing getting in there then! The only problem wouyld be aeration i suppose.

Repeated infections really suck. It did my head in when i was getting batch after batch fail. I replaced my entire brewing setup, pots, fermenters the lot and it was still happening. I bought a silicon siphon and $15 cube and i never had another infection!! Wish i'd done that first!

I use Five star 5.2 to adjust mash ...then full boil with AG. Even gone the bottled water option for kits. Not discounting anything though!

 

[jimmysuperlative]

ekul, believe me I've been looking at the "sanke ferment kit". As for no-chill, it's how I've always brewed ...and this is how random the problem can be: I can knock-out 50L of wort into two jerry cans to no-chill. Both cubes will seem fine -even storing for weeks- and I detect no "off" aromas at transfer to fermenter. Like i said, I purge with CO2 and make a point to use quality yeast. I used to pour wort into fermenter to aerate, recently moved to filtered airstone.

I boil my silicone tubing prior to transfer ...and have probably turned over most of my gear three or four times in an effort to break the cycle. I've tried to simplify things to avoid wort exposure. my process is pretty much boil, nochill, fermenter, keg. There's no racking to secondary, or taking hydrometer samples during fermentation.

Maybe it's me? Maybe I'll try taking an iodophor shower before attempting any wort transfer???

 

[outbreak]

Maybe try bottling a batch? Might have a dodgy weld in a keg? New fermentor/tap. Strip down your beer taps?
Whats your yeast starter procedure?

 

[jimmysuperlative]

Maybe try bottling a batch? Might have a dodgy weld in a keg? New fermentor/tap. Strip down your beer taps?
Whats your yeast starter procedure?

I just end up with dodgy beer in a bottle... the problem is either there at end of ferment, or it isn't.

...and I have replaced fermenter taps, fermenters, kettle valves, etc

Has anyone ever sent samples off for lab analysis? Who does this sort of testing?

 

[ekul]

so where do you detect the taste? I had a taste in my beer recently, then i cleaned out the taps and it went away.

 

[redlegger]

Do you ferment in a fridge?? I had trouble with mould growth in my fermentation fridge, luckily i got it cleaned up before it could ruin any of my brews!

 

[jimmysuperlative]

so where do you detect the taste? I had a taste in my beer recently, then i cleaned out the taps and it went away.

The "taste" is more of a scrubbing out of hop flavour and aroma. It's replaced by a "wrong tasting" bitterness - not really sour or vinegar? Its there at transfer with the "off" aromas.

Do you ferment in a fridge?? I had trouble with mould growth in my fermentation fridge, luckily i got it cleaned up before it could ruin any of my brews!

Yeah, I worried about that too ...especially, air being sucked in through airlocks. I've bleach bomed the fridge, fridge drains, seals a number of times ...and i don't use air locks any more. I've also brewed outside (the fridge) in other rooms, with mixed results.

Thanks for the responses guys, keep 'em coming. I wan't to end this once and for all ...without moving house preferably.

 

[raven19]

Are you repitching yeast?

Using fresh liquid or dry yeast?

Starter size? Testing starter prior to pitching?

 

[redlegger]

Sounds like you have changed every variable except for the location of the brewing and fermentation process!
If you ferment at a mates house and get the same results i guess the only thing left to do is brew at a mates house :mellow:

 

[jimmysuperlative]

Are you repitching yeast?

Using fresh liquid or dry yeast?

Starter size? Testing starter prior to pitching?

mate, I'm not game to give the yeast exposure to anything it doesn't need prior to pitching ...so it's packet us05 or saf04 straight into fermenter. Was rehydrating, but gave that up as a possible cause of infection.

Sounds like you have changed every variable except for the location of the brewing and fermentation process!
If you ferment at a mates house and get the same results i guess the only thing left to do is brew at a mates house :mellow:

That's where I'm up to, red. Got a batch at a mates in his gear on the go ...so it's wait and see. I just handed him the cube full of fresh wort, didn't even go with him to his place ...so i hope it goes good for him. Although, because my results can be hit and miss anyway, I'm not sure what it can really tell me if it ends up a good beer. It would be a better result for me if the beer was shite, at least that puts the problem at pre-fermenter?

I appreciate your thoughts. :icon_cheers:

 

[Bada Bing Brewery]

Could it be a grain issue? Have you looked back on all your good and bad brews? There might be a pattern specific to a certain grain (maybe bulk stuff used) - long shot .....
cheers
BBB

 

[jimmysuperlative]

I use a lot of TF MO as a base, but it's come from various sources. I'm reasonably happy that its not an "ingredients" problem just for the fact that its happened for kit beers as well as AG brews.

Anyone know about bugs that are both airborne and anaerobic?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Just to be certain - have you had other experienced tasters taste your beer and confirm that it actually is an infection? Not the same people who normally taste your beer - a different group. Peferably experienced judges or pro brewers. Its possible that its not an infection at all, but simply a brewing issue. Maybe fermentation or brewday related.

As an example (not as suggestion that this is actually the issue) .. Perhaps you have never had the experience of tasting acetaldehyde before, then you brew some beers that have that issue and it tastes like an infection to you. Then a brew or two work out properly, then another acetaldehyde brew. That sort of thing.

Infections generally... Get worse with time. So if your beers are detectably bad at the end of fermentation, you keg them and thats the way it stays, perhaps not infection.

Out of your next batch where you detect the issue - bottle a couple out of the keg once its carbed up. Then put one bottle in the fridge and another bottle in teh cupboard and leave them for a month. If its an infection, the one that has been warmer should have developed more off flavour than the one thats colder. Its a far from foolproof trial, but might help nail something donw a bit.

Definitely get yourself to a brewclub meeting where there is a room full of experienced brewers, or get your beer to some experienced tasters somehow - and see what they think. None of the beer infections you are likely to have is going to be so off the wall that someone at a club wont be able to identify it. If they cant name an infection... It probably isn't. If its a common brewing probem, they'll probably be able to spot that too.

Good luck - whatefer iot is I hope you knock it on the head.

TB

 

[jimmysuperlative]

Just to be certain - have you had other experienced tasters taste your beer and confirm that it actually is an infection? Not the same people who normally taste your beer - a different group. Peferably experienced judges or pro brewers. Its possible that its not an infection at all, but simply a brewing issue. Maybe fermentation or brewday related.

As an example (not as suggestion that this is actually the issue) .. Perhaps you have never had the experience of tasting acetaldehyde before, then you brew some beers that have that issue and it tastes like an infection to you. Then a brew or two work out properly, then another acetaldehyde brew. That sort of thing.

Infections generally... Get worse with time. So if your beers are detectably bad at the end of fermentation, you keg them and thats the way it stays, perhaps not infection.

Out of your next batch where you detect the issue - bottle a couple out of the keg once its carbed up. Then put one bottle in the fridge and another bottle in teh cupboard and leave them for a month. If its an infection, the one that has been warmer should have developed more off flavour than the one thats colder. Its a far from foolproof trial, but might help nail something donw a bit.

Definitely get yourself to a brewclub meeting where there is a room full of experienced brewers, or get your beer to some experienced tasters somehow - and see what they think. None of the beer infections you are likely to have is going to be so off the wall that someone at a club wont be able to identify it. If they cant name an infection... It probably isn't. If its a common brewing probem, they'll probably be able to spot that too.

Good luck - whatefer iot is I hope you knock it on the head.

TB

Thanks Thirsty ...I know the fight ain't over by a long shot ...and I'll do as you suggest with a few bottles. I've already considered acetaldehyde as a possible culprit.
As far as brewclubs and experienced tasters go, I'm not sure we have evolved and organised that far where I am? :unsure: It'd be great to have someone taste the product however ...someone who knows their stuff. I'd be happy to send a bottle to any willing victims er I mean volunteers?

 

[manticle]

I have an infection that pops up every so often that I think must be related to flowering plants or other wild yeast. Similar to yours - beer looks OK but tastes odd - bread and grass is the best description, and the same flavour no matter what beer, hop or yeast.

To limit the chance your possible similar predator has of taking hold, try buying a brand new cube, sanitise it very well, no chill into it, then add a pack of dry yeast straight to the cube when cooled and ferment in there. Back the lid off a few turns so it doesn't swell/explode.

 

[jimmysuperlative]

I have an infection that pops up every so often that I think must be related to flowering plants or other wild yeast. Similar to yours - beer looks OK but tastes odd - bread and grass is the best description, and the same flavour no matter what beer, hop or yeast.

To limit the chance your possible similar predator has of taking hold, try buying a brand new cube, sanitise it very well, no chill into it, then add a pack of dry yeast straight to the cube when cooled and ferment in there. Back the lid off a few turns so it doesn't swell/explode.

manticle, cube fermenting is an option I've never investigated. Would help limit expose to nasties you'd have to think... could be messy with an active fermentation, but definitely worth a look in to.

Your infection description is the closest I've seen to my problem yet ..."same flavour no matter what beer, hop or yeast"... not sure about bread n grass though? Mine is more old oranges and something i just can put my finger on???

Cheers for the ideas :icon_cheers:

 

[Brewman_]

Some good advise.
I like TB idea of getting somone else to verify and help identify your problem. It helps to know what you are fighting.

I have had this problem before. In my case it was an infected fermenter. But it took me 6 or so brews to work it out.

You need to be very analytical. Go back to the most basic process, and try to brew a good beer. Work out when the infection takes hold, so taste the beer during ferement, and at bottling.

Then work from there until you find the probelm.

So What I suggest is number all your equipment, in sets. Like if you have 4 fermenters, make 4 sets, and number them. Then start brewing with a set at a time. This will help to identify equipment issued, and give you some management of the life of your equipment. Some people here will tell you that ypu plastic fermenter will last forever, not true.

You need to continue eliminating cuases until you get a good beer.
PAIN was pourinjg many beers on the grass.

Fear