Got To Be Airborne, Right?

[potof4x]

Have battled a similar run of good /bad brews for the last 2 years. Have been through the motions of new fermentors, better cleaners/sanitisers, different locations, so your story is def ringing a bell. Lately my beers have become more consistent.
A couple things I have changed.

Was using an old freezer for ferment, till I found fermentor a couple degrees below set temp one day. Now using a fridge, suspect that freezer was cooling too much each cyle, and causing slow/stalled ferments, low attenuation and or letting infections compete with yeast.

Have started boiling ferementors filled with napisan or PBW using an immersion element, rinsing with boiling water and then star san. This seems to have chased off some off flavours.

Also have started operating outside, instead of the kitchen.

My confidence is still shaky, but I keep trying to pay attention to the basics of immaculate sanitation and getting a good ferment.

Def try get the opinion of a good brewer to see if they can pick the problem as suggested buy the guys above.

 

[jimmysuperlative]

Have battled a similar run of good /bad brews for the last 2 years. Have been through the motions of new fermentors, better cleaners/sanitisers, different locations, so your story is def ringing a bell. Lately my beers have become more consistent.
A couple things I have changed.

Was using an old freezer for ferment, till I found fermentor a couple degrees below set temp one day. Now using a fridge, suspect that freezer was cooling too much each cyle, and causing slow/stalled ferments, low attenuation and or letting infections compete with yeast.

Have started boiling ferementors filled with napisan or PBW using an immersion element, rinsing with boiling water and then star san. This seems to have chased off some off flavours.

Also have started operating outside, instead of the kitchen.

My confidence is still shaky, but I keep trying to pay attention to the basics of immaculate sanitation and getting a good ferment.

Def try get the opinion of a good brewer to see if they can pick the problem as suggested buy the guys above.

pot, glad to hear you are getting it sorted. I hope to report back with good news of my own one day.

I'm feeling better for starting this thread ... it's been good to hear from others who have had similar troubles and have won through. And to hear some "new ideas" about what to try/what to avoid. It's encouraging.

fear_n_loath ...i have sacrificed more plastic fermenters on the altar of homebrew than I can count on two hands ...I wanted to go glass, but the next best option seemed to be a Better Bottle ...and mate, they're are friggin expensive, so I'm hoping it's not a fermenter problem!!!

Anyway, I have literally come home from the shops with a new fermenter, cleaned, sanitised and brewed in it ...and it's been a shitebrau! :angry:

 

[felten]

I've had a similar problem as well, with the exact same off flavour in 3-4 batches but with a few good batches in between. It wasn't sour though, a very difficult flavour/aroma to describe, but one that I could pickup and found very unpleasant every time. It didn't cause hyperattenuation or bottle bombs so I was stumped.

I tried changing what gear I could and using new methods but after tearing my hair out, ended up going back to basics. And so far I haven't had it in my last 3 batches (and 1 in the fermenter), so I'm just as stumped as to what it is I was before.

The only thing that I've really changed is my grains/hops, as I used them all up (and yeast too I guess); and switched to rain water for mashing instead of tap water, but I don't think either one was the culprit.



[edit]I picked up one of those better bottles while this was happening as well, they're great. But if you get a ported version it costs more to get the tap+lid parts than for a whole new fermenter, so I went with an unported version + lid so I could attach a blow off.

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

I'll join the club of having something similar, my flavour was what i described as sickly sweetness, really hard to describe...

Anyway drove me nuts for some time, as it turns out it was something from the yeast and my lack of temp control!! I was trying to use ice bottles etc to keep it cool in the hotter months. think I stressed the little yeasties out with the temp up and down to the point they farted something really nasty h34r:

A bit of a tell was the bottles improved over 2 or 3 months as the yeast tried to clean up, does this happen with yours?

 

[enoch]

Probably worth thinking through if the problem you have now is the same one you started with. You may have started with an infection and replaced it with a sanitiser or other process related flavour.
Also when you have brewed into two cubes and split the ferment do both taste funny? If it is an ingredient issue (I had funny tasting MO once) then both should have the problem.
I used to get a strange house flavour where the colour would darken, body increase and flavour get bland. Never tracked it down it just went away - assumed due to the dusty, mouldy, outbuilding I was brewing in at the time.

 

[jimmysuperlative]

There are so many variables and that's what makes this problem sooooo frustrating. There doesn't seem to be any clear contributing factor ...that and the fact that the beers LOOK DELICIOUS!!! I haven't had gushers or exploding bottles or putrid smelling disasters, just this friggin annoying taste/flavour defect that only rears its ugly head occasionally??
I'll keep pluggin' away i suppose.

Still glad to know I'm not alone with it

Cheers,

jimmy

 

[jimmysuperlative]

Probably worth thinking through if the problem you have now is the same one you started with. You may have started with an infection and replaced it with a sanitiser or other process related flavour.
Also when you have brewed into two cubes and split the ferment do both taste funny? If it is an ingredient issue (I had funny tasting MO once) then both should have the problem.
I used to get a strange house flavour where the colour would darken, body increase and flavour get bland. Never tracked it down it just went away - assumed due to the dusty, mouldy, outbuilding I was brewing in at the time.

I worried for a bit about my sanitiser spray bottle ...thought maybe somehow the water I mixed up my starsan with was hiding the infection. I ditched it for a new one, but it's made little difference. Even boiled the water before I mixed it up!

I'm leaning more to environmental influences. I'm thinking of an outdoor "brau tent" like Zwickel's Nano Brewery pics .

 

[altstart]

When I first went A/G back in 05 I had a series of beers infected lost approx 900 litres. I pulled my system apart and changed so many items over a period of 9 months. When I found the problem I did not believe it was possible. I had an infection at the back of the S/S tap on the kettle I kicked myself at the number of times I had looked at the tap and dismissed it as the source because I boiled for 90 minutes. Since then without exception every tap in my system mash tun,kettle and the two on the fermenter get stripped cleaned and soaked in starsan then reassembled. This experience has made me very aware of how important sanitation is especially with A/G. Good luck and I hope you find your problem soon.
Cheers Altstart

 

[Tim F]

I'm no brewing master and you've probably already thought all this through but just in case it helps...

If you're getting an infection logically it has to be introduced to the wort at some point after the hot side of your kettle outlet. I'd be tempted to rule out anything that near boiling wort runs through if you aren't chilling as I'd assume even if it picks up something, it's not surviving hours of exposure to near boiling wort. If that's true the most likely point is while transferring to the fermenter, or while in the fermenter. So if there's something airborne when you're pouring to the fermenter from cube it could be that (that'd be my number one suspect) or the fermenter taps or lid/bung.

One possibility - go straight from the kettle to the sanitised fermenter. Let hot wort contact all parts of the fermenter just like nochilling but not using a cube. Then crack the lid just enough to pitch the yeast when it's cool. There'd only be a tiny window of opportunity for anything to get in then.

One other thing - you could try burning a candle next to your fermenter any time you open it to pitch, whatever - the updraft is meant to help keep bacteria/wild yeast away. Dunno how scientific that is though

 

[jimmysuperlative]

When I first went A/G back in 05 I had a series of beers infected lost approx 900 litres.

F.M.D. !!!! ...900 litres!!!!!!! Mate, I salute the fact that you're still brewing. I think 900L of wasted effort would just about end me. Although, I'd be in the 300's by now I reckon.


Tim, I'd already thought about setting up my fermenter over my rambo burner (well above flame obviously) to get a scorched earth/air effect from the updraft! :blink:

 

[Steve@PMF82]

I always spray a bit of glen 20 in the air when i am doing anything after the boil and during fermentation, generally 5 to 10 mins before what ever it is i am going to, then seal that room up.

Hope you get rid off the problem.

 

[DanRayner]

i had a mate who's star-san spray bottle had a star-san-resistant infection in it - so he innoculated every brew with this same infection everytime he thought he was sanitising.

Try doing like the pros do and clean with hot caustic & sterilise with oxonia - pH shock from theis combo kills pretty much everything

Plus, I'm not certain glad-wrap is the best at keeping beasties out, a rubberband if tight enough might mean that the pressure build up just finds another way out - like a hole in the gladwrap - and the you have a way in when the pressure drops off. But I'm biased, I like lids...

 

[jimmysuperlative]

Good old glen20! Guess what's goin' on the shopping list! :lol:


The first time I ever noticed the problems was a time when flood waters around the town had been lying stagnating for a few weeks. The air was putrid with the stench of rotting and decay ...I've always made the connection in my mind that maybe it was the "air" that started the infection and I've just been moving it around?

Good idea Beer4U, thanks ;-)

 

[jimmysuperlative]

i had a mate who's star-san spray bottle had a star-san-resistant infection in it .

Didn't want to hear that


Where do you get oxonia from? first time I've ever heard of it??

 

[altstart]

I'm no brewing master and you've probably already thought all this through but just in case it helps...

If you're getting an infection logically it has to be introduced to the wort at some point after the hot side of your kettle outlet. I'd be tempted to rule out anything that near boiling wort runs through if you aren't chilling as I'd assume even if it picks up something, it's not surviving hours of exposure to near boiling wort. If that's true the most likely point is while transferring to the fermenter, or while in the fermenter. So if there's something airborne when you're pouring to the fermenter from cube it could be that (that'd be my number one suspect) or the fermenter taps or lid/bung.

One possibility - go straight from the kettle to the sanitised fermenter. Let hot wort contact all parts of the fermenter just like nochilling but not using a cube. Then crack the lid just enough to pitch the yeast when it's cool. There'd only be a tiny window of opportunity for anything to get in then.

One other thing - you could try burning a candle next to your fermenter any time you open it to pitch, whatever - the updraft is meant to help keep bacteria/wild yeast away. Dunno how scientific that is though

I repeat it is possible to get a source of infection on the boiling wort side of the valve on the kettle and it will survive and infect for brew after brew. Back in 2005 Ross <Craftbrewer> who introduced me to A/G was involved along with other people on this forum in trying to find the source of this infection. When the source was found there was no mistaking the smell and physical evidence when I removed and stripped the tap. I purchased a new tap and it and all other taps are stripped, cleaned and sanitised for every brew.
Cheers Altstart

 

[ekul]

Do you chill or nochill altstart?

I repeat it is possible to get a source of infection on the boiling wort side of the valve on the kettle and it will survive and infect for brew after brew. Back in 2005 Ross <Craftbrewer> who introduced me to A/G was involved along with other people on this forum in trying to find the source of this infection. When the source was found there was no mistaking the smell and physical evidence when I removed and stripped the tap. I purchased a new tap and it and all other taps are stripped, cleaned and sanitised for every brew.
Cheers Altstart

 

[altstart]

Do you chill or nochill altstart?

At the time I had this Problem I was brewing 60 litre batches and no chilling into a plastic fermenter. These days I brew 90 litre batches and no chill into a 110 litre S/S conical with no problems. I lost a brew about 5 months back through an infected yeast slant but apart from this one instance no more problems.

Cheers Altstart

 

[Goofinder]

Umm... it's not "No Chilling" if you're just dumping it into a fermenter. That's just not chilling.

 

[O'Henry]

Didn't want to hear that


Where do you get oxonia from? first time I've ever heard of it??

Oxonia's active ingredient is Peracetic Acid (PAA). Might help you when looking for it.

 

[Tim F]

Umm... it's not "No Chilling" if you're just dumping it into a fermenter. That's just not chilling.

Only a homebrewer could make that distinction... "Its not no chilling its not chilling"
I dunno, it's practically the same thing except you can't keep it as long if you rack it into a container with headspace and not perfectly sealed.