First AG hiccups...

[menoetes]

Hey Brewheads,

So I gave my first AG a shot today using Raja's 2 pot stovetop methods with Lauter. I thought I'd give the ever popular Dr S's Golden Ale a shot. After a lot of reading, worrying and some sleepless nights I finally got a process down and tried it today. It took me a lot longer than expected and I had a few bumps along the way.

I remembered to warm up my mash tun esky before pouring in the strike water and many thanks to Brewmate for doing all the calculations for me. After adding the grain and giving it a good stir we were at 66.5'c, excellent! I put alfoil on top of the mash to help maintain temp, seal her up and set the timer for an hour. Then I started thinking - which was my first mistake.

Dr S's recipe calls for a 78'c mash-out and I wasn't sure how to do that in a plain ol' esky. Then I started reading about decoction and decided to give it a shot. So after 50 minutes of mashing I check my temp and it has dropped almost 2 degrees! I guess my $15 esky off gumtree didn't seal as well as I would like. All the more reason to try decoction, I tell myself. ^_^

So I scoop out about 5 litres of wet grain with a big wire sieve and pop it on the stove and start stirring... and stirring... and stirring. Fortunately the grain gruel comes to a hissing boil just before my shoulder starts to cramp up and I let it bubble away for 5 minutes before adding it back into the mash esky. I stir vigorously and it smells good, So I pat myself on the back then on with the alfoil and lid to stew for 15 minutes longer. Now it's time to lauter...

I scoop it all into the lauter bucket, and set the tap to a slow run, about 1/2 litre a minute. I start pouring the runnings back in until it runs clear. Then I start moving the clear liquid into the pots, this takes almost an hour but when I try to open the tap further, it doesn't make any difference to the rate of flow. So I meditate on the merits of patience and once it's finally done I grab the 82'c sparge water from the stove and begin pouring slowly it through a colander over the grain. It seems to all pool on top of the grain and not run through... what to do?

Naturally impatient me decides to give the grain a good mix and repeat the cycling until clear method again. This time collecting the runnings takes over an hour and then it's onto the stove. A quick SG check with correction for the temp tells me that my 25-27lts of fluid has a SG of 1.033.

'This seems a bit low,' says I, 'Better boil it a bit longer to reduce it.'

So my boil ends up being a little over 2 hours including a boil-over when I nip downstairs to rinse out the esky, of course. My partner was already complaining about the smell filling the house, so I get a nice change of pace as she starts on about the messy cooktop. :mellow:

I'm pushing 5 hours of brewing at this point so I lazily decide to hop into one pot instead of both and use a cold water bath to cool it. Then both cooled pots go into the FV and it is now that I realize that the final volume is 16lts with a SG of 1.054! I had foolishly boiled the wort far too long...

So what was meant to be a 23lt batch with a target FG of 1.044 was now a 16lt batch of 1.054.

'Well just water it back up to the desired SG' says the ever reasonable Me.

...and that's just what I did. Strangely I hit my target gravity at 20lts rather than 23lts. I had predicted an efficiency of 65% in Brewmate, was I being too optimistic for a first time all grain brew?

Now into the 6th hour of brewing I have had enough, so I just pitched the yeast (wyeast American II) into the 20lts at 24'c and into the brew fridge set to 18'c hoping it will turn out ok. It's a bumpy start to my all grain journey. It all felt like a lot of work though I guess a lot of it is just inexperience.

At the end of this long rambling thread I guess I'm just looking for advice on how to improve my process/efficiency and whether or not the beer I brewed today is going to turn out like rubbish?

 

[boybrewer]

Congrats you have just made BEER ! And don't worry it will turn out better than you have expected . You are correct you did over think it but you got there in the end . It does get easier the more you brew on your system the better you will get at it , like grain to water volumes, boil off rates etc .Its just a matter dialing in all the variables that make your system work for you .Hell we all make mistakes every time we brew but that is part of the fun and we all still turn out great beer most of the time . The decoction you did beleive it or not was well done and probably will improve the flavour , colour and mouthfeel of the beer . Just relax and enjoy . To improve your process just keep brewing it is a learning curve every time you brew . WELL DONE !


P.S . You can always add DME if you undershoot your literage to bring up your volume and to reach the S.G.

 

[storeboughtcheeseburgers]

Haha - that sounds like a typical rush around first brew. I have 3 under my belt, and I can tell you, while your first one might have felt like a mad woman's sh**, you will have learnt a lot about your system.

First thing that strikes me about your brew is temperature management. You don't want to boil the grains *during* mashing as this can give off flavours and tannins.

A mash out basically means adding boiling water to your mash to get the temperature up to 78 degrees, and letting it rest for 10 minutes and then extracting. For a 23L brew, I'd envisage you were probably looking at around 23-30ish litres of mash, so depending on your esky size will determine how much boiling water you can add, or even if you can mash out. For example, I use a 44L esky.. last batch I did had 10kg of grains, and the mash in was literally up to the brim.. I didn't even get all my strike water in.. so mash out was not an option.

You can always make up for a mash out in your sparge - probably recommend batch sparging for your next go. You noticed that the water was not going through the grain bed.. Its recommended not to fill over the grain bed level, as you don't want to disrupt the grain bed, so try and avoid that next time too. I'd suggest collander *fly sparging* half your sparge water to get the grain bed aerated and pocketed.. and then batch sparge the remainder - let it sit for 10 mins and then run out the final wort.. I've tried this due to size constraints and had great results.

What sort of thermometer are you using. I found my first AG a lot of the mistakes were due to a crap therm, I purchased two from Wiltronics here.

I'd recommend getting some good mercury therms .

Don't worry too much about efficiency. All efficiency shows is how much of the sugars you extracted from your grains.. And don't worry about getting less wort - This isn't really an issue for me.. I do double 40L batches and I usually end up with less wort and a higher gravity.. but hey, am I complaining - Nope - 3 litres less beer, but also have *stronger* beer.. so long as its not miles ahead its fine - I usually am about 4 points ahead and a little bit of loss 17-18L batches X 2.. I don't keg, but maybe I should giving the amounts I'm brewing haha..

In any case, I would definitely not say you had a failure, but just ended up with a big of a stronger FG - Put it down to experience. I'd recommend watching this guy's videos here - It's a bit American, but i found it to be really helpful and a much more relaxed view of AG brewing - Don't get too caught up in the numbers, just enjoy, learn and refine what you do and have fun - it is a hobby after all.

 

[menoetes]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'm sure you're right and as I get used to my new system/equipment I'll get better and quicker at using it.Normally I love the brewing process but at the exhausted end of such a long brew day with my partner grumpy on the couch - I'll admit I was feeling a bit sour about the much vaunted AG brewing process...

So; temp-wise I'm using a digital thermometer at the moment, though it is an el' cheapo one from china. I might have a look at those wiltronics ones - cheers SBCBs.

As for the decoction; I followed a youtube clip for instruction and it seems that they bring the grains to a boil (with minimal wort in the pot) with little fear of tannin extraction. I was worried about it too but from what I hurriedly read on the process, it doesn't seem to be a major concern for many brewers. I might try adding the extra hot water next time as suggested, or sparge at mashout temps. Either way, it'll save some strain on my pansy-assed shoulder muscles.

I'll also not lauter ALL the grain in one hit. Clearly I had too much in the bucket at once and it might have compacted my grain bed thus making it harder for water to flow through it properly. Doing it over two or three batches might be the way to go in future.

All good advice, thanks guys! I'm feeling better about it now and think the next time will be better. We learn as we go... and drink as we go too!

 

[The Village Idiot]

Great work, I see more equipment being purchased very soon, it's a slippery slope my friend. And drinking as you go on brew day creates all sorts of problems and some great stories, not a good idea. lol

 

[Adr_0]

Awesome! Mate we have all been there and all had our fair share of dramas. Sounds like a great beer is underway and just remember not to carbonate with salt or something stupid like that... :unsure:

Air gaps in an esky are a massive source of heat loss. Each time you open the esky obviously doesn't help either. If you can get a bi-metal thermometer or something similar and try to get it into the middle of the grain then clamp up your esky well that might help.

If your runoff rate is limited, what sort of filter/manifold are you using on the bottom of your mash tun? If you had a really fast drain and then it stopped it would be grain compaction, but if it's consistently slow it sounds like a manifold problem, e.g. crushing a braided hose, not enough cuts in a copper manifold, or for a false bottom the weight of the grain pushing the elbow into the bottom of the esky.

Enjoy...

 

[storeboughtcheeseburgers]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'm sure you're right and as I get used to my new system/equipment I'll get better and quicker at using it.Normally I love the brewing process but at the exhausted end of such a long brew day with my partner grumpy on the couch - I'll admit I was feeling a bit sour about the much vaunted AG brewing process...

So; temp-wise I'm using a digital thermometer at the moment, though it is an el' cheapo one from china. I might have a look at those wiltronics ones - cheers SBCBs.

As for the decoction; I followed a youtube clip for instruction and it seems that they bring the grains to a boil (with minimal wort in the pot) with little fear of tannin extraction. I was worried about it too but from what I hurriedly read on the process, it doesn't seem to be a major concern for many brewers. I might try adding the extra hot water next time as suggested, or sparge at mashout temps. Either way, it'll save some strain on my pansy-assed shoulder muscles.

I'll also not lauter ALL the grain in one hit. Clearly I had too much in the bucket at once and it might have compacted my grain bed thus making it harder for water to flow through it properly. Doing it over two or three batches might be the way to go in future.

All good advice, thanks guys! I'm feeling better about it now and think the next time will be better. We learn as we go... and drink as we go too!

Ohhh - thats where I went wrong with my first AG.. bought a el cheapo ebay electric therm.. Mate, put it in a hot cup of boiling water and see how it reads.. I remember mine went from like 87 95 82 all over the place..

Yeah you don't need to sparge at mash out temps, generally hotter than that, between 83-88 - brew mate will tell you. Just saying that batch sparge can somewhat mimic a mash out.. e.g. resting for a while. Think of the grain as a teabag - steeping will make better tea, as it will beer.

Always add half the strike in water so it goes above the braids so you don't crush them with the grain dump.

 

[menoetes]

Cheers again guys but just to be clear, my mash esky doesn't have a manifold, filter or even a tap in it. I scoop out the mash at the end of the hour into a homemade 2-bucket lauter system to run off and sparge such as Lord Raja demonstrates >HERE<.

This budget method of brewing is what got me to try AG in the first place, 2 x 19lt pots from Big W, a $15 esky off gumtree & 2 x $12 big paint buckets from bunnings and I am good to go for my first AG. So many thanks to him again for the demo.

I did use brewmate to calculate the brew temp of my sparge water, it had me heat to 83'c (or something like that) for the 78'c I wanted to mimic mash-out. I only discovered the brew-day function in the program the other day. Now I know it's there, I don't know how people could do AG without it, too much math

I use a 34lt colemans esky, so there was a bit of head space, but I warmed it up first and placed alfoil over the surface of the mash to try and keep the temp stable despite this. I did notice the lid doesn't close snuggly due to age/wear but there was only a thin gap and it wasn't leaking steam. In future I might glad-wrap the lid shut once the mash is in to be sure.

This is all helpful, thanks all.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Good to see. It sounds like a good first time, even if it doesn't feel like it.

Even if you don't stay with the method, you haven't spent much money on equipment that can be repurposed or already has been.

65% is pretty good for a first time.

Storeboughtcheeseburgers - what OP did is a concoction mash, it's par for some german beer styles.

 

[Adr_0]

Ah ok - how big is the gap between your main grain bucket/seive and the collecting bucket? Is there an air gap between the seive and collecting bucket (there probably should be so that it doesn't seal and create a bit of a vacuum). Same amount/size of hole as LRG's?

Maybe you could put an upside down coffee mug in the bottom to keep it off the collecting bucket?

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

There was no exact science in my number of holes drilled.

 

[Beertard]

Theres more than enough gap between the sieve and collection buckets in these dual bucket setups, around 10cm.

 

[manticle]

Storeboughtcheeseburgers - what OP did is a concoction mash, it's par for some german beer styles.

Typo?
Decoction mash although beer is definitely a concoction of sorts.

 

[menoetes]

There has to be nearly two hundred holes about the width of a HB pencil lead. There is also about a handspans width of space between the bottom of the tap bucket and the bottom of the sieve bucket. I'm happy with the buckets, I think I just put too much of the mashed grains into them at once.

I might line the sieve bucket with a biab grain bag next time to see if that changes anything.

 

[Beertard]

That does work, I had to do that for one mash that kept sticking, up end it into the bag and put it back in and continue the sparge
I have since modified the way I lauter so I don't upset the grain bed once its set.

 

[Tahoose]

I use this method and menoetes, best thing I can say is stick with it for a bit. It isn't costing you any more to give it another couple of goes.

Test your thermometer against boiling and ice water. If it reads well stick with it.

I noticed you ran the wort through at the slow rate which I mentioned before, I think you problem started when you opened up the tap fully. Leave it at that rate once your happy with it. By that point you've patiently created a nice grain bed to filter through, you don't want to undo your good work.

Less is more in this regard.

If you want to do some step mashes, have a look around the brewers friend calculators, they have a good one which plans out your rests and your infusions.

Any questions on this system, just fire away mate.

 

[Adr_0]

There has to be nearly two hundred holes about the width of a HB pencil lead. There is also about a handspans width of space between the bottom of the tap bucket and the bottom of the sieve bucket. I'm happy with the buckets, I think I just put too much of the mashed grains into them at once.

I might line the sieve bucket with a biab grain bag next time to see if that changes anything.

That sounds pretty good. I don't know that a BIAB bag will help lauter rates but if your slow rates were caused by blockage - in the seive or in the tap? - then it would help a lot. You can also stir it up if you need to, and I guess you can always lift it out a bit too.

If you had a slow rate then opened it up and it flowed well then dropped off, that's definitely from bed compaction and take the advice of Tahoose above..

 

[menoetes]

Thanks guys, I'm taking a fair bit away from all this help I have been offered.

- Don't fiddle with the tap when draining the mash and sparging, find a good flow rate (not too fast) at the start and leave it there.
- Maybe slip something between the sides of the two buckets in the lauter system to prevent any possible vacuum being created, like some slim metal wedges or coat-hanger wire.
- Strap up the esky after closing it, to prevent heat loss, maybe add another degree of heat to the strike water to make up for some of the expected est. 2'c heat loss.
- Maybe sparge in two batches if using over 4.5kg of grain.
- read more about doing step mashes in an esky.
- trust brewers friends calculations and don't boil the crap out of it to reduce it.
- check my thermometer and possible get a new decent-quality one.
- do some chin-ups and press-ups before trying decoctoin again.

I really appreciate all the help and advise.

 

[StalkingWilbur]

Would've been gone to wait until the wort got down to your ferment temp instead of pitching warm and cooling down.

 

[Tahoose]

It's taken me about 10 brewdays to start feeling comfortable with the process. So if it doesn't exactly go to plan don't stress, you'll get beer.

Have fun, have some homebrew.