Fermzilla

Aussie Home Brewer

Help Support Aussie Home Brewer:

Paddy

Active Member
Joined
22/9/18
Messages
32
Reaction score
13
Location
ACT
Todd depending on the amount of dry hops I either use a mesh hop ball held in place with magnets for a 25-50gm if using more I clean and dry the collection jar add the hop load and close the valve purging with CO2. Once I get to hop time on the tilt flick open valve and watch the chaos un-fold. The trub settles down in the jar and the hops dance in the brew. I run at around 15-18 psi so when it cold crashes it drops to around 10-12.
 

toddyboy

Member
Joined
17/6/07
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
If I am reading your post right, things seem to go pear shaped after, Brew as normal.
Attach the carb stone and the spunding valve on the gas post? The spunding valve is to control the pressure above the wort.
Tossing the dry hops in through the top is far easier than mucking around with collection bottles.
Fit your spunding valve set at required pressure
When FG is reached I would go into the diacetyl rest phase for a couple of days, at the same temperature.
Drop temperature to dissolve the CO2 into the beer then attach the carbing stone.
For this latest brew, you're right. Everything started to go downhill after I sprinkled the yeast and closed the lid. First mistake was leaving the valve on the collection jar closed while I was pouring the wort into the FV. Second mistake was adding CO2 to the brew once I closed the lid. The yeast seemed to sink instead of sit on the top and start to do its thing. Opening the valve added to the agitation of the brew.

My thinking behind the carb stone and the spunding valve doesn't make sense now I read your response. My goal isn't necessarily to ferment under pressure but to be able to carbonate in the FV at some point before bottling so I can drink within a few days rather than waiting a few weeks to condition and carbonate. I also want to reduce any chance of oxidization, hence my thought of spunding valve and carb stone.

Coming from brewing in a bucket, this is a new set up with much more equipment and possibilities, as I'm sure you're aware. I'm trying to work out the best method for me to go from fermenting to drinking in the shortest time while still producing drinkable and flavourful beer. I'm probably at the point where I've read so much in the last couple of months that, not necessarily contradict each other, but have different methods and reasons behind them. I'm trying to work out which process works for me, my experience and the equipment I have. Long term, I would like to get into all grain and kegging. For now, it's partial grain and extract brewing in my FZ, inside my fermenting fridge and bottling into my 1 litre swing top bottles I brought back from Canada with me.

Todd depending on the amount of dry hops I either use a mesh hop ball held in place with magnets for a 25-50gm if using more I clean and dry the collection jar add the hop load and close the valve purging with CO2. Once I get to hop time on the tilt flick open valve and watch the chaos un-fold. The trub settles down in the jar and the hops dance in the brew. I run at around 15-18 psi so when it cold crashes it drops to around 10-12.
I like your thinking of the hop ball and magnet. For most brews I've been doing, it's only been a single dry hop amount of usually 25gm so a ball and magnet would be waaaaay easier than messing around with collection jars. For a more hoppy beer with multiple types of hops to add, the collection jar method, while more work, will produce the better results.
 

kadmium

Pro
Pro
Joined
12/3/07
Messages
1,000
Reaction score
673
Hey mate. Just to add, if you have something dangling into the liquid and a spunding valve ontop, it will draw liquid out the spunding valve and ruin it (if I am interpreting that right)

Don't worry about the yeast dropping into the liquid. Plenty of people add the dry yeast to the fermenter and add wort ontop. It's not harmed if it gets stirred in.

I would:

Add wort to fermenter. Add yeast. Make sure its well aerated. Either set pressure with gas or leave. Depends on what you prefer. Adding gas early can suppress ester production of yeast.

Ferment at 10PSI. Once you're a few days from crashing, set spunding valve to 15, raise for a rest around 20c.

Cold crash, gelatine fine, what ever you need to do. Attach gas, and let it cold condition in the fridge on 10PSI for a week (don't want green beer, let's it clear up a bit etc)

Attach bottling gun, bottle away.

????

Profit.
 

wide eyed and legless

Well-Known Member
Joined
5/9/13
Messages
7,179
Reaction score
3,431
Location
Mulgrave Victoria
For this latest brew, you're right. Everything started to go downhill after I sprinkled the yeast and closed the lid. First mistake was leaving the valve on the collection jar closed while I was pouring the wort into the FV. Second mistake was adding CO2 to the brew once I closed the lid. The yeast seemed to sink instead of sit on the top and start to do its thing. Opening the valve added to the agitation of the brew.

My thinking behind the carb stone and the spunding valve doesn't make sense now I read your response. My goal isn't necessarily to ferment under pressure but to be able to carbonate in the FV at some point before bottling so I can drink within a few days rather than waiting a few weeks to condition and carbonate. I also want to reduce any chance of oxidization, hence my thought of spunding valve and carb stone.

Coming from brewing in a bucket, this is a new set up with much more equipment and possibilities, as I'm sure you're aware. I'm trying to work out the best method for me to go from fermenting to drinking in the shortest time while still producing drinkable and flavourful beer. I'm probably at the point where I've read so much in the last couple of months that, not necessarily contradict each other, but have different methods and reasons behind them. I'm trying to work out which process works for me, my experience and the equipment I have. Long term, I would like to get into all grain and kegging. For now, it's partial grain and extract brewing in my FZ, inside my fermenting fridge and bottling into my 1 litre swing top bottles I brought back from Canada with me.
Instead of concerning your self about achieving a shorter grain to glass time when bottling, why not brew more, letting you drink the beers a couple of months after bottling. Just keep turning them over. Or serve and drink direct from your fermenter.
A good article here from Scott Janish about the dry hopping and effects of top pressure on fermentation.
.
 

kadmium

Pro
Pro
Joined
12/3/07
Messages
1,000
Reaction score
673
So he used two different strains of yeast
Pressure: RVA Manchester Ale
No Pressure: London Ale III

And then different hop quantities:
Pressure: 10g of Citra and Galaxy in the keg
No Pressure: 40g of Citra and Galaxy (4 times the amount)

And recipes:
Pressure: No pre fermentation addition
No Pressure: 15g of Galaxy added pre-fermentation

Then he decided the one with the NEIPA specific yeast, with 75g of extra hops had a better flavour and aroma? Geee.... you think?

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's known that pressure fermenting does inhibit esters / phenols, but doing an 'experiment' and then brewing essentially two different beers, with the one you're trying to show is better getting a clear advantage and then being 'surprised' that it's better is just down right dumb.

I know you have a crush on Scott Janish as you post this article against pressure fermenting every chance you get, but perhaps find something that's a little more scientific.

I personally pressure ferment and I do not notice a difference between gravity fermented and pressure fermented. So, OP, don't listen to the naysayers who for whatever reason decided that pressure fermentation bad, only bottle condition.

Might as well stop no chill cubing and BIAB too, cause pretty sure when that all started it was claimed to be a hoax, a source of botulism in no chill and other rubbish.
 

wide eyed and legless

Well-Known Member
Joined
5/9/13
Messages
7,179
Reaction score
3,431
Location
Mulgrave Victoria
So he used two different strains of yeast
Pressure: RVA Manchester Ale
No Pressure: London Ale III

And then different hop quantities:
Pressure: 10g of Citra and Galaxy in the keg
No Pressure: 40g of Citra and Galaxy (4 times the amount)

And recipes:
Pressure: No pre fermentation addition
No Pressure: 15g of Galaxy added pre-fermentation

Then he decided the one with the NEIPA specific yeast, with 75g of extra hops had a better flavour and aroma? Geee.... you think?

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's known that pressure fermenting does inhibit esters / phenols, but doing an 'experiment' and then brewing essentially two different beers, with the one you're trying to show is better getting a clear advantage and then being 'surprised' that it's better is just down right dumb.

I know you have a crush on Scott Janish as you post this article against pressure fermenting every chance you get, but perhaps find something that's a little more scientific.

I personally pressure ferment and I do not notice a difference between gravity fermented and pressure fermented. So, OP, don't listen to the naysayers who for whatever reason decided that pressure fermentation bad, only bottle condition.

Might as well stop no chill cubing and BIAB too, cause pretty sure when that all started it was claimed to be a hoax, a source of botulism in no chill and other rubbish.
I could put information up from Wiley online library, but most folk will understand a layman's approach. Why do you think that there are no brewers writing about pressure fermentation, or writers of brewing books, because closed vessel pressure fermentation should be carried out as Terri Fahrendorf first wrote years ago?
What you want to do is up to you, giving poor advice isn't on I would encourage new brewers to read, forget asking other brewers opinions. There are no stupid questions but there are stupid answers. Dry yeast, "make sure you oxygenate, aerate your wort, 10 years ago maybe now dry yeast goes straight into anaerobic fermentation! Adding oxygen is asking for trouble.
Advice to new brewers, develop an analytical mind read and learn, there is plenty of information out there.
 

djebel

Well-Known Member
Joined
4/10/10
Messages
56
Reaction score
24
Advice to new brewers, develop an analytical mind read and learn, there is plenty of information out there.
Sound advice, but the problem is there is HEAPS of information out there. Some of it is good, some outdated, and some just plain wrong. How does one tell (especiailly when new to a hobby) what is good information, and what is not?
 

kadmium

Pro
Pro
Joined
12/3/07
Messages
1,000
Reaction score
673
Exactly, and steering people away from pressure fermentation at the homebrew scale using articles stacked against the outcome doesn't do any favours.

If you think pressure fermentation is bad, that's up to you.

Yes, you need to be aware about what pressure does to yeast. And at what PSI you will operate and it's impact. Yes, 8t inhibits esters.

But to cart blanch tell the guy to just brew more and don't do what he's planning rather than giving him constructive feedback is just pushing what YOU think or find.

I was answering his question. This is like people telling brewers not to dry hop because they don't like NEIPAs.

If he wants to batch carb, ferment under pressure, do what he wants then people should offer constructive information.

Linking Scott Janish at every opportunity telling people not to pressure ferment gets old.
 

kadmium

Pro
Pro
Joined
12/3/07
Messages
1,000
Reaction score
673
Oh
I could put information up from Wiley online library, but most folk will understand a layman's approach. Why do you think that there are no brewers writing about pressure fermentation, or writers of brewing books, because closed vessel pressure fermentation should be carried out as Terri Fahrendorf first wrote years ago?
What you want to do is up to you, giving poor advice isn't on I would encourage new brewers to read, forget asking other brewers opinions. There are no stupid questions but there are stupid answers. Dry yeast, "make sure you oxygenate, aerate your wort, 10 years ago maybe now dry yeast goes straight into anaerobic fermentation! Adding oxygen is asking for trouble.
Advice to new brewers, develop an analytical mind read and learn, there is plenty of information out there.
Oh, and such sources like Chris White who doesn't recommend harvesting yeast. It's bad. Oh wait, he owns a yeast company.

There are plenty of pressure fermenting home brewers. Dr Hans on YouTube, Gash from Home Brew Network, David Heath, Larry BBQ n Beer, Short Circuited Brewing, the list goes on.

There were no books or BYo articles about no chill cubes either. I see you do that though. Haven't gotten botulism either I assume?

And a critical eye that you purport to have would pick up that Janish brewed two completely different beers then passed one off as no good to further his agenda.
 

wide eyed and legless

Well-Known Member
Joined
5/9/13
Messages
7,179
Reaction score
3,431
Location
Mulgrave Victoria
Sound advice, but the problem is there is HEAPS of information out there. Some of it is good, some outdated, and some just plain wrong. How does one tell (especiailly when new to a hobby) what is good information, and what is not?
Read Terri Fahrendorfs Closed Vessel fermentation, this is where it all started. It was printed in Zimurgy a number of years ago, taken out of context and the gullible followed. I'm sure if someone like Gash slug or Dr Hans wrote that using a pressure cooker to brew beer there would be the same people following that advice. Ask Palmer, Strong, Colby, Daniels, Oliver,Papazian, Mosher, Bristow, Bamforth. Not one has come out in support of pressure fermentation.
It should be about what Fahrendorf wrote about initially, pressure at the close of fermentation to naturally carbonate beer.
 

Reg Holt

Well-Known Member
Joined
29/1/19
Messages
297
Reaction score
180
Location
Brisbane
I think if you reaearch Chris White a little more you will find he is not fo pressure fermentation. Also look more into the scientific results from which Scott Janish reaped his knowledge. Forget about the drongoes who are trying to promote Pressure vessels and see what real brewers advise.
 

Grmblz

Well-Known Member
Joined
19/6/17
Messages
935
Reaction score
680
Location
Far South Coast NSW
Let's not forget that the pressure at the bottom of a 5mtr fermenter is 6psi (sorry Mark) so even if commercial guys don't actively spund there's still pressure involved.
I've tried it, and don't do it anymore, in my case the perceived benefits of quicker turn around are simply better served by just using Kveik.
This is just personal choice and I would encourage anyone interested to do a split batch, using higher temp/pressure on one and normal temp/no pressure for the other. You can then make an informed choice whether or not it's for you and your preferred style.
 

kadmium

Pro
Pro
Joined
12/3/07
Messages
1,000
Reaction score
673
Head pressure and hydro pressure are different, and we are talking at a home brew scale of 10PSI (I don't run at higher, due to too much ester reduction) but I am simply stating try it for yourself and see.

I also think that Scott knows what he is talking about, but you have to admit that stacking an 'experiment' in that way is detrimental to his credibility.

I also don't accept that I am 'gullible' by pressure fermenting, it's what I have looked into and decided on.

Pressure fermenting has not been something accessible to home brewers until fairly recently, and I am sure all those old fossils you gave examples of would have turned in their graves (or their one foot) at the thought of putting hot wort into cubes and letting them sit in the garage. But yet, I notice you no chill. Must be gullible then.
 

frosty3

Active Member
Joined
16/3/17
Messages
43
Reaction score
18
Dry yeast, "make sure you oxygenate, aerate your wort, 10 years ago maybe now dry yeast goes straight into anaerobic fermentation! Adding oxygen is asking for trouble.
Am I in trouble?? I still oxygenate to give it the best chance to do its magic.
 

mje1980

Old Thunder brewery
Joined
14/12/04
Messages
5,702
Reaction score
1,407
Read Terri Fahrendorfs Closed Vessel fermentation, this is where it all started. It was printed in Zimurgy a number of years ago, taken out of context and the gullible followed. I'm sure if someone like Gash slug or Dr Hans wrote that using a pressure cooker to brew beer there would be the same people following that advice. Ask Palmer, Strong, Colby, Daniels, Oliver,Papazian, Mosher, Bristow, Bamforth. Not one has come out in support of pressure fermentation.
It should be about what Fahrendorf wrote about initially, pressure at the close of fermentation to naturally carbonate beer.
My only interest in getting a pressure fermenter ( all rounder or similar, no interest in a valve on the bottom ) is to skip a secondary and crash chill in primary and then closed transfer to keg. Bit off topic but is it possible to just use the co2 to do this ? Gravity sample?

I’m quite happy to wait for my lagers.
 

wide eyed and legless

Well-Known Member
Joined
5/9/13
Messages
7,179
Reaction score
3,431
Location
Mulgrave Victoria
I wouldn't say pressure fermenting is new to home brewers, Terri Fahrendorf wrote her article 30 years ago, so definitely not new.
I was answering toddyboy )Quote- My goal isn't necessarily to ferment under pressure but to be able to carbonate in the FV at some point before bottling.)
I was suggesting an easier way to achieve what he wants, I have never been against pressure fermentation, I am just for doing it as intended, as most craft and micro breweries do it.

My only interest in getting a pressure fermenter ( all rounder or similar, no interest in a valve on the bottom ) is to skip a secondary and crash chill in primary and then closed transfer to keg. Bit off topic but is it possible to just use the co2 to do this ? Gravity sample?

I’m quite happy to wait for my lagers.
Yes if you are cold crashing with dissolved CO2 in the beer but you will still need to use the CO2 bottle to push it through.

Am I in trouble?? I still oxygenate to give it the best chance to do its magic.
The dry yeasts have come a long way, they come packed with sterols and minerals most will advise to sprinkle or re hydrate but not to add oxygen, the yeast just doesn't need it. The density of the wort plus the fermentation would probably get rid of most oxygen, just means you have been doing something that isn't needed with a possibility of it being detrimental.
 

toddyboy

Member
Joined
17/6/07
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
Hey mate. Just to add, if you have something dangling into the liquid and a spunding valve ontop, it will draw liquid out the spunding valve and ruin it (if I am interpreting that right)

Don't worry about the yeast dropping into the liquid. Plenty of people add the dry yeast to the fermenter and add wort ontop. It's not harmed if it gets stirred in.

I would:

Add wort to fermenter. Add yeast. Make sure its well aerated. Either set pressure with gas or leave. Depends on what you prefer. Adding gas early can suppress ester production of yeast.

Ferment at 10PSI. Once you're a few days from crashing, set spunding valve to 15, raise for a rest around 20c.

Cold crash, gelatine fine, what ever you need to do. Attach gas, and let it cold condition in the fridge on 10PSI for a week (don't want green beer, let's it clear up a bit etc)

Attach bottling gun, bottle away.

????

Profit.
Your process is what I will do for my next brew. It's what I was piecing together myself so thank you for confirming my thoughts.

I managed to get the bottling gun sorted. Pretty nifty tool. I was skeptical about the quality of the brew that I had in the FZ but I tried it during my bottling experiment and it was drinkable. My eyesight is still working so it must be ok. However, the bottles I filled on Sunday that were fine to drink that day in terms of carbonation were flat as a tack last night when I tried one. Something went wrong either in the carb or bottling process.

I did just read that I should have my bottles at a similar temp to the beer I am bottling, which I didn't do, so that's something to try next brew. I used the PRV to purge the CO2 from the FZ and had my cylinder set at around 3psi. It seemed to have more head than I have experienced when using the bucket to bottle from, which was fine when pouring straight from the keg into a glass to drink on the spot. Any thoughts on that one?
 

kadmium

Pro
Pro
Joined
12/3/07
Messages
1,000
Reaction score
673
Your process is what I will do for my next brew. It's what I was piecing together myself so thank you for confirming my thoughts.

I managed to get the bottling gun sorted. Pretty nifty tool. I was skeptical about the quality of the brew that I had in the FZ but I tried it during my bottling experiment and it was drinkable. My eyesight is still working so it must be ok. However, the bottles I filled on Sunday that were fine to drink that day in terms of carbonation were flat as a tack last night when I tried one. Something went wrong either in the carb or bottling process.

I did just read that I should have my bottles at a similar temp to the beer I am bottling, which I didn't do, so that's something to try next brew. I used the PRV to purge the CO2 from the FZ and had my cylinder set at around 3psi. It seemed to have more head than I have experienced when using the bucket to bottle from, which was fine when pouring straight from the keg into a glass to drink on the spot. Any thoughts on that one?
Most important is to purge the bottle you are filling first, and then you need to keep head pressure in the bottle. Is it one of those counter pressure fillers? Like a Blichmans knock off?

You should have two triggers, one purges gas and one fills. Purge the bottle, and fill it under pressure. Should hold carbonation for a long time, but also depends how much co2 was in the beer.

If it's freshly fermented and only done at around 10psi at room temp, it will be undercarbed. You would need to chill the beer down in the fermzilla, gas it with 10psi connected for a few days to a week, to ensure plenty of co2 is in the liquid.

If the beer was a little flat going into the bottles, the co2 will come out of solution and into the headspace of the bottle, making it flat.
 

toddyboy

Member
Joined
17/6/07
Messages
8
Reaction score
1
Most important is to purge the bottle you are filling first, and then you need to keep head pressure in the bottle. Is it one of those counter pressure fillers? Like a Blichmans knock off?

You should have two triggers, one purges gas and one fills. Purge the bottle, and fill it under pressure. Should hold carbonation for a long time, but also depends how much co2 was in the beer.

If it's freshly fermented and only done at around 10psi at room temp, it will be undercarbed. You would need to chill the beer down in the fermzilla, gas it with 10psi connected for a few days to a week, to ensure plenty of co2 is in the liquid.

If the beer was a little flat going into the bottles, the co2 will come out of solution and into the headspace of the bottle, making it flat.
Yeah, it's the Blichmans knock off bottle filler from Kegland.

I purged first then filled and sealed in my swing top bottles right away. I cold crashed the FZ for about 4 days in my fermentation fridge then hooked up the cylinder at about 12psi for about 2 days. It was also sitting at around 12psi for about 7-10 days during fermentation. It was good right out of the FZ on the day, flat as a tack yesterday and a bit better today. When I poured it while cooking dinner, I wasn't my normal gentle self and poured it straight into the jar without tilting to give it some head.
 

Latest posts

Top