Don't Be Disheartened By The Anti-extract Hype Of All Grain

[Malted]

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

BF - RE: AG right of passage.

Anyone can start anywhere they want to. Goop doesn't HAVE to be the starting point, but you have to admit that AG requires a huge amount of knowledge and equipment compared to K&K.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

I can brew on my stovetop with a 19L big w pot and the stuff I have in the kitchen a fullsized AG brew. I'd have the 19L big w pot (because it is size v cost cheaper than anything) to do my extract brewing. The only extra cost is the $5 for curtain material for BIAB.

The ingredients are far cheaper than a good extract brew.

It doesn't require a huge amount of knowledge. Understanding a single infusion mash is simple. Soak grains at certain temp to get sugars out. The hopping is something that a lot of extract brewers have some grasp (or good grasp, it seems) on. Same with yeast.

It's just the logical starting point, less knowledge, less money, less time.. it's logical on all three aspects for someone to start with extract and work their way up.

You might not thinks it's complicated now, but try remembering day zero when you started, with all the variables of AG there is infinetly more oportunities for something to go wrong with a newb trying AG. More chances for them to get frustrated and throw the hobby away.

Wrong, wrong, right. You've hit the nail on the head in time - the biggest factor in extract and where it is better than AG is time.

I would also hasten to add that the reason most people give up brewing (and almost all of them do so with a kit), is the fact that the instructions under the lid of the coopers tin says "brew at 28 degrees" and they wonder why they produce watery, fusel-y, cidery "beer".

Take a look at ebay - the "reasons why" someone sells a "once used coopers kit" is almost always the same.

Yeast health is paramount, regardless of method.

I do.. and all my friends who do extract do as well.

Have a look for some extract recipes online. You'll be hard pressed to find one that doesn't have "proper" hop bittering. I'm not sure where you got this opinion from, because it's demonstrably wrong.

I got my opinion from 10 years of extract/kit brewing and 2 of AG.

The big advantage that extract has is time. Why would I waste time bittering an extract with a 60m bittering addition? All time savings has gone then, I may as well AG.

I'm not hating - I've been there. I know what both sides have over the other. I AG brew in full knowledge of that.

I do find that some AG brewers can be sanctimonious (even 3V AG brewers over BIAB brewers occasionally).

I find some extract brewers that will bang their drum, and yet have no idea what AG brewing is like, raving about time, cost of equipment and knowledge. I can say from personal experience that time is a correct assumption (assuming no 60min bittering of an extract brew), and the latter two are absolute rubbish.

If I'd known what I do now and if I'd had access to the ingredients I can now (at the price one can get them), I'd have never done kit and extract brew. Either way I've got to learn something, why learn extract and then unlearn it to learn AG. The idea that AG is complicated and expensive is just plain wrong. I should know, I've done both.

Goomba

 

[warra48]

I don't hate brewers of any sort.
We're all brewers and members of this forum, and we hopefully participate in a co-operative fashion to inform, assist, and amuse each other.

Having said that, I don't even hate extract brews. A fellow member of this forum and I regularly exchange our brews for sampling and feedback. One of us does kits or extracts, and one does AG. Each of us enjoys the other's beers, and try to give an honest appraisal. However, the consensus appears to be that AG brews gives you more freedom to design beers to your liking, and to do styles which you cannot do with kits or extract.

Ultimately, the best of the commercial beers available are all brewed using what we call the AG method. None of them make a wort, then boil it down under a vacuum into goop, to only then rehydrate the goop back into wort.
There is no question that brewing an AG beer does take time, even though I agree with Beerfingers post #30. I can never do a batch in under 6 hours, including preparation and clean up. Extract brewing is certainly a lot quicker than that. If you are time poor because of work or family reasons etc, then extract brewing may be the most practical solution.

I work on the principle to "love thy neighbour as thyself", and to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If the neighbour happens to be an extract brewer, then that's fine with me.

 

[mje1980]

Can't we all just get a long-neck!?

Being a no chiller who doesnt change hop calcs is almost as bad as being an extract brewer to some haha. Don't worry, there are enough sub groups of brewers for the hate to be shared equally!!. '

Brew what, and how you like i say

 

[Wolfy]

Brew what, and how you like i say

Totally, just don't make silly random bullshit claims based on a flawed experiment published online which may or may not even support those silly bullshit claims.

 

[Clutch]

Have to agree with BF there.

I did K&K/Extract for 10 years (give or take a few months - sometimes I say 11, sometimes 10). If I'd known what I did now, I'd have never brewed kit in the first place.

Other than sanitisation, it taught me nothing. I'd have jumped in AG off the bat.

Having said that, 10 years ago, AG brewers didn't have access to the grains and hops they do now. So if you're starting up, jump straight in. The stuff that's important either way, such as yeast health, what racking does, sterilise everything and how to bottle/keg - isn't that hard to learn at all.

But the thing is, that with AG brewing, the stuff that makes a really good beer (mash temp, boil times for hopping, decoction (for some), more flexibility with ingredients, that sort of stuff) is only learnable as an AG brewer. And only an AG brewer is likely to bother, because they've made the choice that quality is more important than time.

Sure, a good extract brewer will hop and probably do it well, but no extract brewer would waste an hour properly bittering a batch of beer - after all the reason for extract is mostly a time based decision (from my personal experience). And extract brewers are limited in their base malts, whereas an AG brewer can whack Rye with Floor Malted Boh Pils malt if they so choose.

And that is the fine tuning that makes a good beer great.

Yep, a poor AG beer is worse than an average extract beer. But if the brewer in both instances has great process control, the AG brew will win. Mine do, hands down, and I thought my extract beer was really good. But the comments I'm getting from my tasters now are very much better than they were before.

Finally, whatever you produce, you have to live with the time spent to make it, the money spent on it and the beer you drink. If you do extract and you don't have the urge to make it better/different, stick with it and enjoy it. If you have this nagging feeling that you want to do more, then come to the dark side.

Goomba

I just blamed you dude.
Ha.

You paid your dues (and mine) for 10 years, whereas after our conversation (and the taste test) I jumped in straight away.
I bottled my first batch of beer on the 1st of May and I'm about to bottle my second ever AG brew this week. If anyone mentions curiosity about HB, I'll still recommend K&K for the first few ones to get them hooked and so they can learn cleaning/sanitising.

 

[argon]

snip... I'll still recommend K&K for the first few ones to get them hooked and so they can learn cleaning/sanitising.

I recommend fresh wort kits. If you get the cold side right with one of those you'll be drinking great beer.

 

[~MikE]

If anyone mentions curiosity about HB, I'll still recommend K&K for the first few ones to get them hooked and so they can learn cleaning/sanitising.

i wont, i was very much put off HB from the first few batches. sure you can make palatable and even 'good' beer using goop cans but if you're putting in the effort that's required to make kit cans palatable, AG really isn't that much more of a jump in terms of time and effort.

 

[jzani]

I've been brewing for about a year, and done about 30 brews. Been venturing into AGs, and there are loads more variables for you to be able to control your brew, which is great. However, recently time is at a premium, and beer is becoming scarce, so I thought I would repeat a couple of my favourite extract brews. 50min from start to finishing clean up, compared to the guts of a day for AG, and I know the product will be highly enjoyable.

IMHO there is a time and a place for everything.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

@impy, just to fill you in.

Clutch came around to obtain some swingtop bottles from me.

Tried some of my AG (stovetop, poverty method, BIAB, AG beer).

Hooked.

To be honest, it isn't my brewing - it's the method. It just produces good beer. It isn't idiot-proof, but so long as you respect it, it'll produce great beer.

Clutch tried my most basic one hop, base malt +200g spec malt beer with a lager dried yeast.

Thanks for sticking up for us, clutch. PM me with how it turned out, and any qu's.

Goomba

 

[manticle]

What a shit idea for a thread (or at least a very badly worded title). There's a million and one AG brewers out there who are supportive of other methods of brewing including extract. Why be defensive about your brewing - if you enjoy it, keep brewing that way. If you're not happy or wanting to change or curious or whatever, brew another way. This 'versus' kind of crapola is amazingly unhelpful to everyone.

Who gives a tin fiddler's ****?

As for stepping stones - suits some people, not others (as with all things brewing). Care less about what and how others decide to do things and more about how you (generic you) do.

Enun's post makes the most sense of any so far, although I also agree entirely with mje.

I also have some small bits of gravel in my shoe.

 

[Pennywise]

I brew kits & AG. I spose everyone should think I'm a lesser brewer. This debate is shit, always has been....



Drunk PW..... OUT

 

[roo_dr]

Is Carlton Draught an extract or an all-grain? :huh:

 

[insane_rosenberg]

I think a key point gets lost in this discussion.

Unless you knew someone who does AG (and there aren't that many of us), or your first venture into brewing was to walk into a LHBS that sold grain (and there aren't that many of those), you'd have no idea AG even existed.

I grew up knowing plenty of guys that home brewed. Number who did AG? None.

Once I met a guy who had a keg setup and I thought that was the most ultimate achievement in home brewing!

I brewed for 2.5 years before someone bought me the Complete Guide to Beer and Brewing by Strachan. Literally the first reference I ever saw to AG.

Do you really expect someone in that position to say "F*** what I've been doing for my entire hobby so far", and shell out the big bikkies for a brew rig for their next batch? All on a process they never knew existed? And have never actually seen in operation?

My names Shane and I brewed for 5 years before my first AG. And that AG was the first home AG I ever tasted.

 

[Wolfy]

Unless you knew someone who does AG (and there aren't that many of us), or your first venture into brewing was to walk into a LHBS that sold grain (and there aren't that many of those), you'd have no idea AG even existed.

Unless you have the inter-web at home, work or on your phone and can access websites like AHB, listen to podcasts on TBN and BBR - which lets face it most everyone does now days, and most assuredly everyone who can read or post in this thread also does.

 

[jyo]

Did I just see an attractive pig? :wacko:

 

[keifer33]

Did I just see an attractive pig? :wacko:

If you have been drinking tonight then yes...if not :icon_vomit:

 

[Nick JD]

All Grain beer made at home with very little equipment tastes as good or better than beer bought from the bottlo.

The other methods also do ... if you are a brewing legend.

What I'm trying to say is it's actually easier to make supurb beer, if you make it the same way supurb beer is made.

 

[bignath]

I think a key point gets lost in this discussion.

Unless you knew someone who does AG (and there aren't that many of us), or your first venture into brewing was to walk into a LHBS that sold grain (and there aren't that many of those), you'd have no idea AG even existed.

I grew up knowing plenty of guys that home brewed. Number who did AG? None.

Once I met a guy who had a keg setup and I thought that was the most ultimate achievement in home brewing!

I brewed for 2.5 years before someone bought me the Complete Guide to Beer and Brewing by Strachan. Literally the first reference I ever saw to AG.

Do you really expect someone in that position to say "F*** what I've been doing for my entire hobby so far", and shell out the big bikkies for a brew rig for their next batch? All on a process they never knew existed? And have never actually seen in operation?

My names Shane and I brewed for 5 years before my first AG. And that AG was the first home AG I ever tasted.

I completely agree with you Shane.

Your post above makes complete sense to me. I also brewed for quite some time without ever knowing there was "another way" to make beer. Self confessed can of goop from the supermarket, maybe some brew enhancer if i wanted to feel pretty fucken fancy, 15g of hops if i really wanted to show off.

I had absolutely no idea all grain even existed, and i have no recollection on the precise moment i found out about it, but it was due to this forum somehow. I made some kick ass beer with my hopped cans, but i feel i make much better beer now with my grains, my mill, adding my own hop additions etc...

I also agree with manticle (as i often do) in that threads like this are starting to become ridiculous, and the more time we spend focussing on anything other than how we make our own beer, the more our own beer will suffer. Personally, i couldn't give a flying **** how other's make their beers, if i have a good recipe that turns out good beers regardless of method used, then i'll be a happy camper. Some of my all grains have ended up on the lawn, and some of my earlier extract goop can beers have been the best and most inspiring i've done to date.

Overall, i'm much happier drinking my all grain beers, but having said that, if there was suddenly a grain and hops shortage, i'd have no problem creating decent beer again using tins - either from a quality issue or a pride/ego point of view.

 

[enuun]

Enun's post makes the most sense of any so far, although I also agree entirely with mje.

+1 I think so too :lol: :lol: :lol: