Don't Be Disheartened By The Anti-extract Hype Of All Grain

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I have been a grain brewer for 6 or 7 years and was recently asked by a mate to help him with his new Coopers starter kit. I gave him a few pointers, instructed him to throw away the packet yeast, the instructions and the carb drops and helped him rig up my temp controller to his bar fridge and I donated a yeast starter of WLP002 which was ready to pitch and a kilo of dried malt extract .

The resulting beer was technically pretty good. No faults in the beer at all, and a group of us drank all the bottles within an afternoon.

The comparison of kit and extract beers to cake mix and instant coffee is absolute bullshit. Good cold-side and fermentation technique is much more important in making good beer, than the method that the wort was prepared.
 
I think the major problem with extract brewing is the difficulty in getting good extract that isn't dark and stale after months on a shelf. I prefer to make my own "extract" from the grain and get fresh stuff.
However if you can get a reliable good cheap source of fresh extract then it is possible to make very acceptable beers.

Oh and did I ever tell you my toucan headbanger stout made it to the Nats a couple of years ago......... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Plenty of Kit and Extract beers have scored really well at NSW comps in the past. I don't really understand the Goop haters. Everyone has to start somewhere.
It would be interesting to see a brewing method (KnK, Extract, Partial, AG) being shown next to the results in a future competition.
Not that it's anything to really go by.

Brewing's all about having fun really. Get into it cos you want to, not cos you're pressured by a faceless troll on the interwebs (but that faceless troll becomes a future mate at the next AHB pubcrawl, so choose your enemies words wisely! ;) )
 
I know when I decided to go all grain it was so much easier having already *mastered* temp control, sanitation, yeast, bottling/kegging. It takes a fair bit to get your head around the mashing process (if you're like me and really want to understand what's going on), bittering, recipe selection etc.

I know I made a few really good APAs that were extract. You can make great extract beers but as others have said you don't have the fine control over your recipe and really can't make light lagers/pilsners.

Anyone that says you need to do one first is wrong, but it can help.
 







I think goop is a product for using to masturbate yourself, or your pet, I am not sure which.
 
Sorry, I don't understand. Why does what the beers tasted like before they were ready to be drunk have anything to do with the end result.

Imagine at a baked cake competitions, the judges taste all the cakes and decide on the best one. Then you come along and say "oh but this one that didn't taste the best at judging tasted the best before it was put in the oven"....... sense.. it makes none.
Nobody said the beer was not ready to be drunk 'at kegging', in-fact the article makes it clear that that "a German wheat beer ... take quite a flavor ride over their lifetime, with large swings when they are young" and "The best advice is to taste them often and drink when you enjoy them." So there is no reason why the AG beer could not have been force-carbonated and consumed or judged 'at kegging' since it was "the best by far" at that time.

When evaluating the AG brew the second time it was suggested "The bitterness balance is off; it is too high" yet as part of the AG brewing process "The all-grain beer was a full 5-gallon boil. This did extract more hop bitterness." - more hop bitterness was extracted compared to the other beers so of course it is going to be more bitter. In addition "In mashing the all-grain beer, it did become stuck and the mash bed was loosened up with whole hops, which transferred into the flavor of the beer." So not only did the boil extract more bitterness but they also added hops to the mash, which is a very very unusual practice, both of these procedures make a fair direct comparison between the AG and extract brews a total cock-up.

Even so, the AG beer came 2nd when evaluated at a particular time, which means that 3 out of the 4 extracts were worse than the AG beer. However, the comments in the article indicate that if the beers were judged at different times the result would likely have been different.

My conclusion from reading the article is as follows:
A Coopers based extract German wheat beer, when judged at a specific interval of 10 days after fermentation, scored the best out of 5 beers, the single AG beer in the experiment came second despite being brewed with more hop bitterness and hops added to the mash. However this also means the AG beer scored better than 3 of the 4 extract beers that were evaluated.

If you ask me - what is 'pretty clear' is that for this style of beer when it is judged is the most important factor and that the beer can change a great deal as it ages, especially while young. I'm not hating the extract beer or brewers - the Coppers extract scored better than any of the 4 other beers in this test - however it's a pretty wacky jump to get from there to this the claim in the OP that: "It's pretty clear that good clean processes and controlled fermentation are the keys to good beer. Don't let the haters put you off your hobby!"
 
Yes with AG you have more variables that can be purposefully adjusted.. but the demonstrable net effect of those adjustments have less impact on taste than good quality ingredients, preparation and fermentation.

We all love brewing, why do people have to perpetuate derogatory remarks against extract brewers? Especially since the evidence really doesn't support the extract haters.

The evidence in the real world does.
Name one Brewery that sells an extract beers successfully. Just one.
I can name one, but i can tell you, it's beers are shit, and it's fkn far from Successful.

It's the same as coffee. Would you go to a Cafe and expect a hot cup of moccona? No, because that's not how you make great coffee. Sure it's fine at home and at friends houses, but if you REALLY enjoy coffee and were serious about it, you wouldn't waste your time on instant.

All AG brewers know that you can make a decent Extract beer with a little TLC, honestly, that's no secret. But what all extract brewers don't know, is that with the same effort as you put into caressing that Extract beer to make it taste good, with the same effort into an AG beer (and i'm not just talking about sanitation and temperature control here) the AG beer will still be in front.

It's great that Extract beers do well in competitions, but what are the win\loss ratios?
How many Extracts get entered Vs All grain beers?
What's the average ratio of win\loss when comparing the 2?
Are these all extracts? K&K?, mini-mash?

Just saying Extract beers have won medals isn't enough, it's like saying there's a solid gold wedding ring in every sewer.
It's inevitable that sooner or later that a gold miner will find gold.
It's how much dirt he's had to sift through to find it that doesn't get taken into account.

I'm probably the most vocal and brutally honest on this front, and I still say I would have a SuperDry than an extract beer, purely because 9\10 goop brewers beers taste like rubber apples to me.

But the fact is...

Beer is made from grains, not from tins.
Cake is made from flour, eggs, milk and other ingredients, not from cake mix in a box.
Coffee is made from ground beans, not from freeze dried powder.

Anything else is just a substitute for time and effort.
Anyone who is serious about Beer, cake and coffee, won't cut corners trying to put lipstick and a dress on a pig.

What i'm trying to say is, anyone who is serious about wanting to make great beer, should make beer seriously and not fk around with the tins of pre-mix.
they shouldn't be scared of AG as it's not hard, it's just hot water and grains.

If you're happy making your goop brews, well done, and good luck to you.
But if you're serious about your hobby, then maybe it's time you threw away your can opener and got serious.

Cheers,

BF
 
BF - RE: AG right of passage.

Anyone can start anywhere they want to. Goop doesn't HAVE to be the starting point, but you have to admit that AG requires a huge amount of knowledge and equipment compared to K&K.

It's just the logical starting point, less knowledge, less money, less time.. it's logical on all three aspects for someone to start with extract and work their way up.

You might not thinks it's complicated now, but try remembering day zero when you started, with all the variables of AG there is infinetly more oportunities for something to go wrong with a newb trying AG. More chances for them to get frustrated and throw the hobby away.

Completely disagree.
How much knowledge do you need to hold grain at 65c for an hour?
Sure, maybe a bit more than opening a tin, but c'mon, you can train a bucket of minced tuna to do that.

And Equipment?
Have a look in the "Move to all grain for $30" thread.

It's not a logical starting point, if anything it's the opposite.
If you really want to make great beer, then make great beer.

And no, it's not complicated, making beer is not complicated, it's just porridge.
this is the problem I have.
There's not a hell of a lot that can go wrong.
If you're going to dive in and start crying that your efficiency was at 60% on your first brew than you're being a anal bone smoker.

It's just beer! just make beer.
hold grain at 65c for an hour
drain water, rinse grain, drain water
boil wort
add hops
add to fermenter
add yeast

What's the brain crippling conundrum??

Cheers,

BF
 
Either way,Haters are just concerned that there product/process may be inferior.if you enjoy what you do and make thats all that matters,fark em all.
 
That can't be true. BeerFingers once said in another thread, that no all grain brewer has ever gone back to brewing with extracts...

If I had no time to do AG I would probably go back.......


Actually no, I would just buy Oettinger Pils or Lowenbrau and make 9L batches on the stove
 
predictably it did'nt take long for this thread to turn into a dribble-fest
 
True, the first post started as dribble, and it's just continued from there.

I'm not 100% sure, but I can't help but somehow feel that maybe, indirectly I may have possibly contributed to it....
 
i like my extract brews ,wouldn't mind moving to all grain,so as long as your beer tastes good(and on tap) to you, fark everyone else,
lets get drunk!!
 
Actual results 2009 NSW Amateur brewing championship. Category 1 and 2.
Place Brewer Style Score Kit/Mash
(max 150)

Category 1 Low Alcohol 17 entries
(Judges: Tony Kilpatrick BJCP, Adrian Davies, Les Wever. Steward: Ray Primmer)
1 Hurt, Andrew 1.1 Light Australian Lager 115 Kit - Rapid Creek
2 Cranston, Barry 1.4 Southern English Brown Ale 106 Mash
3 Stephens, Larry 1.1 Light Australian Lager 105.5 Kit - Coopers
4 Barlin, Dion 1.5 Mild Ale 102 Mash
5 Symons, Peter 1.6 English Bitter 101.5 Mash
6 Davies, Adrian 1.6 English Bitter 99 Extract
7 Slattery, Kerry 1.1 Light Australian Lager 99 Kit - TCB
8 Hannan, Danny 1.1 Light Australian Lager 87.5 Mash
9 Gaul, Andrew 1.4 Southern English Brown Ale 85.5 Mash
10 Pryde, Adrian 1.1 Light Australian Lager 84 Kit
11 Cranston, Barry 1.3 Scottish Light Ale 80.5 Mash
12 Gillman, Mark 1.2 Leichtes Weizen 37.5 Kit
13 Mewburn, Ross 1.1 Light Australian Lager 0 Kit
14 Button, Josh 1.6 English Bitter 0 -
15 Symons, Peter 1.5 Mild Ale 0 Mash
16 Raymer, Shaun 1.1 Light Australian Lager 0 -
17 Gillman, Mark 1.1 Light Australian Lager 0 Kit

Category 2 Pale Lager 25 entries
(Judges: Barry Cranston BJCP, Eric Young, Lorraine Young. Steward: Peter Shanks)
1 Campbell, Rod 2.3 Pale Continental Lager 115.5 Mash
2 Hurt, Andrew 2.2 Australian Premium Lager 109.5 Kit - Morgans
3 Button, Josh 2.4 Munich Helles 109 Mash
4 Kelly, Michael 2.1 Australian Lager 106.5 Kit - Blackrock
5 Hawkins, Richard 2.3 Pale Continental Lager 106 Mash
6 Simpson, Scott 2.5 Dortmunder 102.5 Mash
7 Hurt, Andrew 2.1 Australian Lager 101.5 Kit - Morgans
8 Anderson, Steve 2.1 Australian Lager 96.5 Kit
9 Kelly, Michael 2.1 Australian Lager 96.5 Kit - Blackrock
10 Mewburn, Ross 2.1 Australian Lager 96 Kit
11 Hannan, Danny 2.2 Australian Premium Lager 96 -
12 Campbell, Rod 2.5 Dortmunder 95.5 Mash
13 Pryde, Adrian 2.1 Australian Lager 95 Kit
14 Furbank, Dav id 2.1 Australian Lager 92 Kit - Coopers
15 Martin, Geoff 2.1 Australian Lager 92 Kit - Morgans
16 Boland, Ronald 2.1 Australian Lager 89.5 Kit - Morgans
17 Mewburn, Ross 2.1 Australian Lager 88 Kit
18 Anderson, Steve 2.1 Australian Lager 83.5 Kit
19 Cranston, Barry 2.4 Munich Helles 83 Mash
20 Cranston, Barry 2.4 Munich Helles 82 Mash
21 Pugh, Peter 2.1 Australian Lager 82 Kit - Brewcraft
22 Raymer, Shaun 2.5 Dortmunder 78.5 Mash
23 Pugh, Peter 2.1 Australian Lager 77 Kit - Coopers
24 Wiggins, Collin 2.5 Dortmunder 69 Mash
25 Peake, Cameron 2.1 Australian Lager 67.5 Mash

Lot's of kits outperforming mash there. Even Barry was shown up by kits and he would happen to be one of the best amateur brewers in the country.
 
jus brew what you like and enjoy it =)
 
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