Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[mofox1]

Are you trying to do too much at once, WillieP?

As Mardoo mentioned, that's a lot of valves... Anything in contact with wort you will want to be able to break down and clean periodically as the ball valves do accumulate crud inside - 3 piece 3 way is easiest but exy.

Best tip I could give is to start with the simplest, working solution that will allow you to build up towards your end goal.

In my case that was a esky (cooler) and stove pot, to an esky with two 88L pots, 15Amp elements and one pump (batch sparge, no recirc). That kept me going for a while...

Then for the HERMS upgrade I added a (Electric Brewery style) control panel, upped the elements to 22Amp, a coil in the HLT and a second pump (temp controlled recirc and fly sparge). And sight glasses... I like those

The only things from my original build I no longer use are the 15amp elements (although these are now my backup elements) and a small control box to adjust the voltage being supplied to the element.

I went with camlock fittings as soon as I had the two pots, and haven't regretted it. They're a bit chunky, but work extremely well.

Good idea with the removable rack, my pump rack is also removable/invertible so my pumps can drain and dry.

 

[TheWiggman]

Apologies but gallons completely lose me and likely almost all other Aussie members, you might as well be reporting in cubic furlongs for mine. If you could stick to SI units it will make sense to countries outside of the US, Burma and Liberia.

I work on the principle that the HLT should be the same size as the kettle. My MLT ends up being the least-filled vessel, so I'd swap the MLT and kettle around if you can.

Regarding valves, sparging, swapping etc. I reckon as above it's too complicated. I went through a few iterations and if you're prepared to swap hoses, I'm convinced my arrangement is the simplest on a 2 tier system HERMS. This is it mash phase -

Pretty straightforward. After that, I reconnect the pump suction to the HLT and run a new hose to the boil kettle -

Cons are that I need to lift the kettle using my almighty strength so that I can drain it to a cube/fermenter. That's ok in my sprightly thirties but when I'm older I'd likely have a hoist or similar to raise (or a Braumeister h34r: ). If you count my valves I have 4 in total and have complete control of the system. Also note I only have 1 pump.
If you want to do no swapping at all, I'd replace the MLT drain with a 3 way valve and install an addition 3 way valve on teh pump suction. Run a hose from the HLT to the pump valve.

Of course you can skin your own cat your way but that to me is the lowest cost and simplest solution for this setup.

 

[mb-squared]

Apologies but gallons completely lose me and likely almost all other Aussie members, you might as well be reporting in cubic furlongs for mine. If you could stick to SI units it will make sense to countries outside of the US, Burma and Liberia.

relax big fella, units are arbitrary and easily translated. some prefer gallons, some prefer litres. your preferred system might be better, but no need to scold those who prefer a different set of arbitrary units. if you're lost, try this: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=1+gallon+in+litres

 

[TheWiggman]

Scold, hardly! You wait until you hear me scald. I'm adept with calculators and search engines but I shouldn't need to convert. A preference is one this but this is an Aussie website regardless of where it's hosted, and hence we should stick to SI units.

 

[WillieP]

mofox1 and TheWiggman, thanks for your feedback.
mofox1,
Trying to do to much? Without a doubt! What I have drawn up would be the long term, down the road
type a thing. One reason the cost, and also I will grow the system slowly to see what I like and what
works for me. First off I will add a pump and get used to recirculating, and maybe whirl pooling. Then I would like to add the EHEX and PID controller.
TheWiggman,
Firstly, I agree with you that I should have converted from Gal to Liters, I will in the future refrain from using cubic furlongs, fathoms, or fortnights!
Thanks for posting photos of your system, that helps. Can I ask what your using for your HEX vessel
and it's size?
My MLT and HLT are 38 liter plastic round drink coolers, the BK is a 30 liter SS kettle. Future EHEX to be 8 liter with 2000 watt element.

If you want to do no swapping at all, I'd replace the MLT drain with a 3 way valve and install an addition 3 way valve on teh pump suction. Run a hose from the HLT to the pump valve.

I'll work on wrapping my head around this.

Cheers Again!

 

[Tex N Oz]

Scold, hardly! You wait until you hear me scald. I'm adept with calculators and search engines but I shouldn't need to convert. A preference is one this but this is an Aussie website regardless of where it's hosted, and hence we should stick to SI units.

اوالحمد لله أننا لا تستخدم اللغة العربية. قد ينزعج. :lol:

 

[Adr_0]

Hi WillieP,

You could probably delete V5, V8 and V9 - these are all two valves on the same line.

I agree with upsizing the BK - 8gal if you are lucky you might get 6gal out of it but probably only 5gal. You could squeeze out pretty close to a double batch with a 10gal MLT though (assuming 15-17lb of grain).

I would also look at the tie-in from your BK to heat sparge water through P1, so that P2 can be used purely for MLT recirculation.

If you are only going to stick to 5gal, you could always grab a 5-6gal poly bucket and use this for your sparge water, saving yourself the HLT completely?

 

[TheWiggman]

Thanks for posting photos of your system, that helps. Can I ask what your using for your HEX vessel
and it's size?
My MLT and HLT are 38 liter plastic round drink coolers, the BK is a 30 liter SS kettle. Future EHEX to be 8 liter with 2000 watt element.

Check this out: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/76055-all-grain-3v-electric-system/?p=1129253
I bought the parts from www.onlinebrewingsupplies.com which is an Aussie store. When making your heat exchanger, do your best to keep the volume of the liquid down to a minimum. 8l is more than ideal, 2l would be tops. Here's the original thread with a build doc: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/63362-hermit-coil-heat-exchange-build/

Adr_0, stop fighting the power.

 

[Adr_0]

Adr_0, stop fighting the power.

The metric system? I'm working with two American companies and there's nothing but metric, but the guys talk in both interchangeably which I have to respect.

The bucket is great: use it for cracking grain and cleaning either side of sparge water, and no hoses to worry about - just pour. Another option for the HLT is to put an element on it, but at some point you would need extra power/wiring to run two elements in parallel or a heavy duty switch if high current wiring isn't available - and the switch would back you into a corner when you get close to needing sparge water. Or heat with a burner as you've done, but use the other pump so you can keep recircing with the other one.

A 15.5gal keg would be the go, if there is the gas behind it.

Keep in mind as well siphoning - where can you form siphons, and how do you stop it happening - and air in the lines, particularly on the suction side of pumps. Long, gently sloping lines are bad - you're better off going straight down then horizontal when coming into a pump.

And regarding needing to keep V5 to throttle:
- Move V6 to between the HEX coil and the MLT to try and keep the coil full of liquid and throttle using this valve
- Delete V5, V8, V9 and V7
- When you fill from the MLT to the kettle, throttle (if you really need to at the start) at the bottom of the kettle
- When transferring sparge water from the BK to the HLT through pump 1, the hose should be on the pump side of V4. If you have to, throttle on the valve at the bottom of the HLT.

 

[WillieP]

TheWiggman, Thanks for posting the link on the hermit build. I'd heard people talk about the coil, but didn't understand what they were putting them in. Sometimes the brand names used are lost on me. I don't think that style of element is available to me (but to be honest I haven't checked), however not a problem getting an element for a house water heater.

Adr_0, You make several good points, I like the idea of using P1 to get from the BK to the HLT (not sure why I didn't see that). And yes I probably went a little nutzo with the valves, I guess my thought was that if all I had to do was open or close a valve it would make it easier, not more complicated.

I'll re-draw and re-think this. It's all still theory and there are so many ways to skin that cat. You guys really are helping, and I do truly appreciate it.

Side Note: Does everyone use that "cube" style of fermenter? I don't think that's a thing over here. I use a 6.5 gal (25 liter) plastic bucket with air tight lid as primary, and a glass or plastic 6 gal (22.7 liter) carboy as secondary.

Once Again,
Cheers!

 

[mofox1]

Side Note: Does everyone use that "cube" style of fermenter? I don't think that's a thing over here. I use a 6.5 gal (25 liter) plastic bucket with air tight lid as primary, and a glass or plastic 6 gal (22.7 liter) carboy as secondary.

Nah, just a few weirdo's... h34r:

Somewhat (alright a lot!) :icon_offtopic:, but cubes are often referenced when using the "no-chill" method of brewing, which is basically filling up water storage containers to the brim of near boiling hot wort. Once in the cubes the wort can be stored somewhat indefinitely.

Since the wort is already in the cube, it is easy to use them as fermenters as well... just add yeast.

And to continue the OT theme... I think we are also less keen on "secondary" fermenters here too, but each to their own.

 

[Mardoo]

Just don't ask about glad wrap…

 

[WillieP]

Mofox1, Total of Topic. Sorry curiosity got the better of me. I've never even heard of "no chill" brewing, sounds kinda cool though. Thanks for the explanation.
The secondary thing is a hold over from wine making. Not terrible common, unless you're say aging on oak or something similar. Don't tell anyone, I've made wine longer than I've made beer.
Maroon, "glad wrap"...I'm not taking the bait!

 

[jlmcgrath]

20151229_195241.jpg

I run one at the HEX inlet Jlmcgrath.
Basically, my HLT is the only vessel with a sight glass so I use this to fill the MT via the herms coil. Then I can set the tap to recirc the MT through the herms and bring to mash temps. This allows me to disconnect the HLT hose from the 3 way and recirc my HLT through the whirlpool inlet (I use two pumps in my system).
Once the mash is finished I can fly sparge from the HLT through the herms coil which flushes it of any wort. This is the only time which I have to disconnect the MT outlet hose to the kettle but I use a small bowl (SS of course!) to catch the drips.
There's more than one way to skin a cat but using a 3 way suits my setup ATM. Never need to disassemble it because it's all hot side. At about $50 they're not the cheapest option but can certainly make things easiest.

Thanks Camo. I assume you are using a T port 3 way valve in your setup?

 

[Camo6]

Thanks Camo. I assume you are using a T port 3 way valve in your setup?

Nah, mine is an L port 3 way. I can feed the HEX from either the HLT or the MT otherwise the valve is closed to flow.

 

[evoo4u]

Auber 2352P parameters

I've been playing with my Auber PID controller and (fancy motorised) heat exchanger, with the honorable/commendable/foolhardy/quixotic (strike out whichever don't fit!) goal of achieving perfection .

I'm interested in the parameters other users set for this controller, and their configuration, which of course affects how the P, I & D are set. Auto-tune of course sets all three (and alters the t parameter for whatever reason), but the results are not stellar. Good advice in this thread is to just use P, and D if necessary.

But today, using just plain water at 65C in the MT, and pumping through a 6m coil in 3.6 litres with a 2200W element, I got excellent stability with parameters tweaked from the auto-tune: P (432), I (62), & D (19). I reset t=2. By excellent, temperature ranged from 65.0 to 65.1 (measured at the HEX outlet).

What are you folk using, and are you happy with the result?

• P:
• I:
• D:
• Mash size - kg (water + grain bill):
• HEX size - liters:
• Coil length - meters:
• Element power - watts:
• Flow rate - lpm:

 

[60.lewdogg.9]

You said u drain into cubes/fermenter. What are cubes used for here?

 

[TheWiggman]

evoo4u - http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/41110-dedicated-herms-guide-problems-and-solution-thread/page-73#entry1310593

Follow Adr_0's advice here, specifically regarding P and D. Lots of technical banter around these pages if you want to get your head around it.

 

[evoo4u]

Yeah thanks for that. I've read through the entire thread, and have been doing some extra reading as well.

It seems that P, PI, and PID controllers are the go for most applications, and that PD controllers are a rarity. So I'm interested in why PD controllers are reportedly (thanks to ADR_0) best suited for our applications in home brewing with a HEX.

With a steady inflow and steady loss of temperature to the surroundings, I trying to get my head around why a bit of I wouldn't help. It seemed to be just the duck's nuts in my trial with plain water.

I've read a fair bit on the topic of manually tuning a PID controller, so I'm interested in what works for other brewers. Or if you're happy with a performance which is not quite as good as you expected.

Basically - are you using I or not?

 

[Adr_0]

Before you try tuning PID parameters, what is the process you are trying to control?

If you have a constant coil flow and change your element power from 1000 to 2000 W will the temperature steady out or will it climb?

This is the crux of it. Integral control does sound great but it builds up error and so controller output the longer you're away from setpoint - and while proportional winds back as it approaches, integral is still there thinking it has all this error and will keep your element on. But the process won't steady out by itself, it just follows slopes (temperature rate of change).

This is particularly bad with a high volume HEX, short coil and small mash tun where your integral control has you sitting above setpoint and still feeding power in - ie overshoot.

A good system will be able to have a fairly high proportional gain and keep setpoint without integral control but still respond to small changes.

Have a look on Google about self regulating and non-self regulating systems and decide for yourself what we have as brewers.