Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[cdbrown]

Looks good. You can probably ignore the elbows on the pump and just go straight into the T-piece. Also (even though it's just an illustration) you will need to change the connections on the T-piece on the HERMS outlet as the probe won't fit in the small stub. Better off having the probe through the main body, HERMS on the other side and have the recirc line out of the stub

 

[shawnheiderich]

So did my first brew today with my new HERMS rig. Don't have much to add to the current discussion but I will say I did not bother with a thermo in my mash tun just using a probe at the outlet of the HX. I will say that today there was very little difference between the probe and the portable thermo I used to check the mash tun temp. I recirced the entire mash schedule and ramped from 55c to 64c in about ten minutes but it took about 15 minutes to go from 64c to 75 c with my 20l urn (HX) almost boiling to get it there. Was a good day and all went as planned until the end of the boil, but we live and learn...

Shawn

 

[cdbrown]

How much copper did you get into your HX? For the HX to be boiling I'm guessing your flowrate was fairly high meaning the mash wasn't spending enough time in the HERMS to warm up enough. Only way to fix is to choke the flow using the tap (easy) or increase the amount of coils in the HX (hard). A few little things that can help is insulating the hoses in and out of the tun. Also stirring can help distribute the heat a little better.

 

[shawnheiderich]

Yep that's what I thought I had it flowing flat out, 815 march pump and was getting a bit of a whirlpool in the tun! Will slow the rate next brew. I've got about 9m of copper coiled in there. I was not unhappy with the ramp time but I thought that maybe with the flow my mash would get sucked down...all good though. I have some of my hoses insulated and will complete prior to the next brew.

Shawn

 

[roller997]

Are you looking to batch sparge? I would have my HLT directly going to the MLT so that you can feed the MLT with sparge water while going out to the kettle. With your configuration you will need to empty the HLT into the MLT (assuming it is big enough to host the hotliquor and grist) or you would have to batch sparge.

Regards

Roller

 

[Tim F]

Is there any reason you couldn't have separate cold water inlet and outlet in your HEX and then recirculate through the coil with cold water flowing over it after the boil till you reach pitching temp, then drain to fermenter and pitch?

 

[mxd]

Is there any reason you couldn't have separate cold water inlet and outlet in your HEX and then recirculate through the coil with cold water flowing over it after the boil till you reach pitching temp, then drain to fermenter and pitch?

not too sure I understand this one, but are you now thinking of using the HX as a chiller ?

 

[Tim F]

Yeah exactly. use it to heat the wort through mash steps as usual, then boil, then after the boil recirc again but this time pump cool water through the hex until the wort cools to desired temp.

 

[darrenp]

I had the same when I first set up my herms. I had two ball valves one at the top and one at the bottom of the herms pot with nylex hose fittings attached. I ran the mains water through the bottom and let it overflow through the top. This didn't work real well unless I kept draining the entire volume and topping it up while continuing to circulate. I got sick of doing this pretty quick and installed a plate heat exchanger. Couldn't believe the difference and can now cool to fermentation temp with a single pass. This system also allowed me to install a hop back in-line between the kettle and the PHE which has greatly improved my beers in my opinion.

Basicaly I thought it wasn't worth the stuffing around and was happy to outlay the extra dollars for the PHE but that's pretty much the philosophy I've used all along with my set up "a very expensive way to make cheap beer".

 

[shawnheiderich]

Roller not quite sure sure what you mean...

Shawn

 

[mateostojic]

Hi Guys,

I have an SSR question.
I have wired up my control box as per the attached pdf.
My HLT element is run by PID and SSR. I also have a 220V LED indicator light running off the SSR so that i know when the element is on.
What i have found is that when the SSR is not activated, the LED has a mild glow.
I got the multimeter out and saw that there is 24VAC across the output of the SSR when it is not powered.
I went and had a look at the specs of my SSR, as below.

SSR

It says output is 24-380VAC. Does this mean that the SSR is designed to always allow 24VAC trough the output, even when its not powered?

Mate

View attachment Control_Box_Wiring_Rev_2a.pdf

 

[dent]

What i have found is that when the SSR is not activated, the LED has a mild glow.

Is the element still in parallel with the LED when you are measuring 24VAC across it?

 

[mateostojic]

Yes it is, i tried with the element both plugged in and unplugged, same result.

 

[dent]

Yes it is, i tried with the element both plugged in and unplugged, same result.

Pretty odd. That would imply you are putting out 20 odd watts of heat when your SSR is turned off. They normally do leak when they are unloaded - I tested one of mine, it leaks 240V with nothing attached but as soon as you load it up with anything it drops down to zero as you'd expect.

There can be issues with an SSR not turning off if the impedance of the load you are driving is greater than the source impedance of the leakage, but if your element is attached this obviously won't be the case.

 

[Bizier]

I also have this phenomenon with my setup. I noticed when I attached a rice cooker to test it. The 240v neon(?) lights I have on the draw side of my SSRs AND the 'warm' (neon?) light of the cooker both glow dimly, yet cancel when it is switched to cook (provided there is no control current from the PID).

This lead me to the conclusion that the 'warm' function of my rice cooker is purely a scam.

 

[matho]

SSR uses triacs to control the flow of current, THESE ARE NOT SWITCHES. They can and do allow a small amount of current to flow in the 'off' state, this can cause the presence of 240V at the relays output so please take care.

here is something i found with a quick google search at the bottom right of page 3 explains it more

View attachment z124_127.pdf

cheers matho

 

[dent]

Yeah, expect a 10A SSR to leak approx 10mA when it is turned off, but if Ostojic has his element connected parallel to the LED on the output there should be less than a volt across the LED rather than 24V he is reading. 10mA is enough to make a LED shine but only with the element not connected.

I don't see how this can happen unless the element is not connected in parallel.

 

[matho]

Yeah, expect a 10A SSR to leak approx 10mA when it is turned off, but if Ostojic has his element connected parallel to the LED on the output there should be less than a volt across the LED rather than 24V he is reading. 10mA is enough to make a LED shine but only with the element not connected.

I don't see how this can happen unless the element is not connected in parallel.

Very true dent, maybe when Ostojic said he measured across the output of the SSR he was measuring across the SSR and not the load. I looked up the specs on the fotek SSR and it states a max leakage current of 3mA, so to achieve 24v across the SSR 'output' terminals the internal resistance of the SSR in the off state would be about 8K. It's hard to say without testing it for myself.

edit: also maybe the led glows at a very small current which it would have to if its connected across the load

cheers matho

 

[Frag_Dog]

I am getting close to completing my HERMS setup. One thing I am thinking of doing once I get it running is doing away with the camping mat insulation around my Mash Tun (50L Keg Conversion). Due to my setup, I can't run the Mongolian Burner with the Mash Tun on the stand without the camping mat bubbling and starting to smell.

I figure this will increase the load on my HERMS system, but with batch sparging, it should enable me to get to the boil 15mins earlier.

Does anyone else run an uninsulated Mash Tun with their HERMS? Is it a better idea to change the insulation to that sliver waterheater stuff?

 

[dent]

Does anyone else run an uninsulated Mash Tun with their HERMS? Is it a better idea to change the insulation to that sliver waterheater stuff?

Yeah, it runs just fine, your PID controller will just increase the duty cycle to compensate and your maximum temp rise rate will be a little slower.