Dano's All Grain Feral Hop Hog Clone

[Blind Dog]

IIRC, VDK is shorthand for diacetyl.

 

[Blind Dog]

Ive received another reply from the Perth Royal Beer Show which is quite positive. They have basically said that they will consider giving more sheets next year and they have also provided me with the remainder of my comment sheets.

I got an extra 4 sheets for this beer of which 2 were scored 15 and the other 2 were comments only. My summary of the common comments would be VDK (ill have to look this one up because im unfamiliar with it), possibly needs more body and maybe a little bitter or just a harsh bitterness in general.

Ill have a think about those things and tweak my recipe accordingly however my initial thoughts are to up the mash temp just slightly to improve the body and maybe reduce the sulphate back to 150ppm instead of 250ppm to try reduce the harshness of the bitterness.

Cheers.

Congrats on the score - 14.5/20 average is in 'damn nice beer' territory.

On the bitterness, personally I've had (to my taste anyway) success recently with hoppy apas/aipas dropping the bittering addition way down (between 10% and 25% of total ibus) and moving it to FWH, and upping the other additions to compensate. I no chill so add hops at 15min, flameout and in the cube (wort transferred at 80C) using 30 min boil, 15 mjn boil and 20 min steep in beersmith to calculate. The bitterness is still there, but is softer and more rounded than the apas/aipas i brewed previously.

Odd that a 40min mash at 67 doesn't leave enough body given your grain bill (assuming its the recipe on page 3?). Personally I'd adjust the hopping and salt additions 1st. Also see if you can fit a long mash-out into your schedule as I'm not the only one to find it adds a few points to efficiency, which means I can sparge less which in turn seems to up the malt/body side of the balance just a little without adding to the OG.

 

[danestead]

Congrats on the score - 14.5/20 average is in 'damn nice beer' territory.

On the bitterness, personally I've had (to my taste anyway) success recently with hoppy apas/aipas dropping the bittering addition way down (between 10% and 25% of total ibus) and moving it to FWH, and upping the other additions to compensate. I no chill so add hops at 15min, flameout and in the cube (wort transferred at 80C) using 30 min boil, 15 mjn boil and 20 min steep in beersmith to calculate. The bitterness is still there, but is softer and more rounded than the apas/aipas i brewed previously.

Odd that a 40min mash at 67 doesn't leave enough body given your grain bill (assuming its the recipe on page 3?). Personally I'd adjust the hopping and salt additions 1st. Also see if you can fit a long mash-out into your schedule as I'm not the only one to find it adds a few points to efficiency, which means I can sparge less which in turn seems to up the malt/body side of the balance just a little without adding to the OG.

Cheers for the tips. The recipe that was entered is the top recipe on my original post on page 1 which is version 3. Im not actually sure what is on page 3, maybe it is the same one, maybe not.

Brewing my first Double IPA tomorrow. 320g of hops in a 20L batch. Fingers crossed!

 

[manticle]

VDK is vicinal diketone. Diacetyl is a vdk. The chemical 2-3 pentanedione, which is closely related to diacetyl and has a honey like flavour is another.

 

[danestead]

VDK is vicinal diketone. Diacetyl is a vdk. The chemical 2-3 pentanedione, which is closely related to diacetyl and has a honey like flavour is another.

Ok thanks Andrew. Im pretty much giving up with US-05 for a while now. I pitch 1 hydrated 11.5g packet which according to a few sources contains 20B cells per gram of yeast on average (as opposed to the minimum stated by fermentis), this calculates to pretty much the exact pitch rate which is considered ideal (21L of 1.057 wort), I temp control to within 0.3 of a degree swing, I pitch on temperature at either 16 or 18 degrees (Ive used both with no luck), I give it a diacetyl rest at 22 degrees once the gravity hits 1.020 and leave it on the yeast at that temperature for a minimum of 3 days after it has hit FG where I then crash chill to 1 degree to drop out the yeast. I am really stumped as to how I could go about fermenting any better. Next time I brew this Hop Hog Clone Ill be using 1272 American Ale 2 with a starter to assure correct pitch rate to see if it helps with my fermenting issues.

 

[Blind Dog]

I think your first question should be whether your beer really has a diacetyl issue. Nothing in this thread indicates that you or anyone else whose tasted the beer (bar the judges) has tasted it. It could be just the bottles sent to the show that were the issue

Second, I doubt it's the yeast as it's one of the most widely used in HB and by micros and I've never seen anything to suggest it can't clean up diacetyl

Personally I'd look to age for longer on the yeast to ensure the yeast cleans up properly. I normally aim for 7 days, but that's just gut feel not science

There is supposed to be an easy diacetyl test involving taking samples, covering, heating one and the smelling. I think I read it on the Professor Beer website. Never done it though and no idea if the Prof is for real or a crock of ****. Doesn't cost anything but a couple of samples to try it though

 

[danestead]

Yeah blind dog, I can't taste diacetyl in this beer but it is heavily hopped etc so that doesn't surprise me. I'll try a diacetyl force test next time and see how I go.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Get any mention on your water additions or was that a different batch ?
Nev

 

[n87]

I think you should just send it all to me and be done with it

I bottled mine on Sunday, 3 cases and 4x5L kegs.... it better turn out ok.
samples from the fermenter have been epic though :chug:

 

[danestead]

Get any mention on your water additions or was that a different batch ?
Nev

No mention on water at all and I used the same profile on 2 different beers in that comp. That being said, im dropping the sulphate back on the next batch to see if it gives a less harsh bitterness and or astringency that was reported by a couple of judges.

Back to the diacetyl though, both beers I entered in the show were with us05 and both got reports of diacetyl. On top of that, a batch of LCBA clone I brewed recently with us05 I tasted diacetyl in as it was hitting FG. I left it on the yeast for another 3 days and the diacetyl fell below levels detectable to me.

 

[manticle]

Don't get too worked up about what judging feedback says. It can be very useful but it can also lead you astray.
If they identify an issue that you simply cannot taste, why stress?
Judges get things wrong all the time. They are people, not spectrometers. One influential judge might say loudly 'wow, diacetyl' and they all write it. That's not how it is supposed to happen but that doesn't mean it won't happen.
Read comments, taste, see if you can discern the noted specifics in your beer. If you can, make adjustments.

 

[BelgoBlacks]

Dano,
First of all, well done and congrats on your placing in the beer show.
Your recipe is a cracker!
Ive just tasted my effort at your recipe. Pretty good stuff. mines a bit smoother and dare I say a bit creamier given I overshot my mash temps. I reckon I got maybe 67 to 69 in the end.a reminder to calibrate my thermometers. Also I biab and dont modify my water so there's a few things I can work on. But bloody nice beer nevertheless.
The last difference is that I put the dry hops in a hop sock after main fermentation. I think aroma might be a bit subdued. Might not bother with the sock next time. Might leave it in the washer instead...
That'll be the one & only context i could use the words "sock" and "subdued aroma" in the same sentence...

 

[danestead]

Dano,
First of all, well done and congrats on your placing in the beer show.
Your recipe is a cracker!
Ive just tasted my effort at your recipe. Pretty good stuff. mines a bit smoother and dare I say a bit creamier given I overshot my mash temps. I reckon I got maybe 67 to 69 in the end.a reminder to calibrate my thermometers. Also I biab and dont modify my water so there's a few things I can work on. But bloody nice beer nevertheless.
The last difference is that I put the dry hops in a hop sock after main fermentation. I think aroma might be a bit subdued. Might not bother with the sock next time. Might leave it in the washer instead...
That'll be the one & only context i could use the words "sock" and "subdued aroma" in the same sentence...

Good stuff, im glad it turned out well!

I also dry hop in a 'sock' and do notice a subdued aroma because of that method however ive been experimenting with dry hopping for different lengths of time. It makes it a bit easier being able to just pull the sock out when I like.

 

[brettski]

...

Well here is a substantial update on the tastings of my Hop Hog Clone (Revision 2).

I went back into Devine Cellars yesterday and the 3 gentlemen there had a taster of my beer and comments were along the lines of; "Best homebrew I've had in a while", "If it was a commercial beer I would have thought that it's a good one", "it really has that fruity American IPA nose", "Balanced" and "the taste lingers". The only criticism was that the mid palate could be improved a little. I'm not sure how I'd go about that or what exactly it means but I'll sit on it and see what the case swap guys say. This taster was not had in parallel to a genuine Hop Hog.

I had my last taste last night and the keg is now empty because the rest has been bottled up for the WA Xmas in July Case Swap this weekend. My comments and what I am trying to achieve with the 'Revision 3' below are:

More aroma - Adding a whirlpool addition.
Very slightly more bitterness - It is well balanced ATM however trying to balance it a little more toward bitterness to give that iconic IPA hit. The revised target FG should achieve that.
Adjusting the individual hop amounts - Trying to bring a bit more pineapple and citrus to the beer.
Reduce hop flavour slightly - Reduced the 15min addition by 20%
Adjusting the OG and target FG - OG to 1.057 and aiming for a FG of 1.013 (as measured in a genuine Hop Hog this morning) equalling 5.8%
Slight Mash sched. adjustment - Trying to sneak the FG down 1 point.
Cleaner ferment - Fermenting at 16 degrees with a 22 degree diacetyl rest once gravity hits 1.020.

Planned recipe below.

Enjoy!


Recipe: Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 3)

Equipment
-------------
20L Braumeister

Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (L): 25.00 (post boil)
Anticipated OG: 1.057
Anticipated FG: 1.013
Anticipated EBC: 15.6
Anticipated IBU: 55 (more than the Feral website's 48 IBU - yes)
Mash Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Alc by Volume: 5.8%



Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
85.8 4.86 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6
10.0 0.57 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
4.2 0.24 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

24.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.93 16.4 60 min.

13.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.92 8.9 15 min.
13.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.60 5.9 15 min.
8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.63 3.2 15 min.
8.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.10 3.9 15 min.
8.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 11.03 4.7 15 min.



6.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.92 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees.
6.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.60 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees.
4.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.63 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees.
4.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.10 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees.
4.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 11.03 0.0 Whirlpool at 70 degrees.


Once the boil is up I will immediately immersion chill to 70 deg to lock in the IBU's and stop isomerisation, add the whirlpool hop addition then do a whirlpool/stand for 15 mins prior to plate chilling into the fermenter. On revision 1 I didn't immersion chill straight away which resulted in a large overshoot in IBU's (even though I based that recipe on 48 as opposed to this one's 58).


13.00 g. Citra Pellet 12.92 0.0 Dry Hop
13.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.60 0.0 Dry Hop
8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.63 0.0 Dry Hop
8.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.10 0.0 Dry Hop
8.00 g. Simcoe Pellet 11.03 0.0 Dry Hop


Dry hop for 4 days toward the end of fermentation in hop bag then remove (revised procedure).


Yeast
-----
Fermentis US-05 American Ale

Fermented at 16 degrees. Diacetyl rest at 22 degrees once gravity hits 1.020.

Mash Schedule
-------------
Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 20
Intermediate Rest Temp: 66 Time: 20
Intermediate Rest Temp: 67 Time: 40
Saccharification Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
Mash-out Rest Temp: 76 Time: 10
Sparge Temp: 76 Time: 0

Water
-------
RO/DI water built up to the following profile.

Calcium 110
Magnesium 20
Sodium 15
Sulphate 250
Chloride 50

Hey, decided to give this a go as my first foray into AG and BIAB. Thought I'd try to replicate the hops used by Feral. Like to get your thoughts:

Wort volume: 26.5L
Fermenter volume: 22L

20g Centennial @ 60

10g Amarillo @ 15
10g Cascade @ 15
10g Centennial @ 15

10g Amarillo @ 10
10g Cascade @ 10
10g Centennial @ 10

10g Amarillo @ 5
10g Cascade @ 5
10g Centennial @ 5

20g Amarillo @ Flameout
20g Cascade @ Flameout
20g Centennial @ Flameout

20g Amarillo @ Dry hop
20g Cascade @ Dry hop
20g Centennial @ Dry hop

IBUs ~ 47

Too crazy? Too symmetrical?

 

[danestead]

Hey, decided to give this a go as my first foray into AG and BIAB. Thought I'd try to replicate the hops used by Feral. Like to get your thoughts:

Wort volume: 26.5L
Fermenter volume: 22L

20g Centennial @ 60

10g Amarillo @ 15
10g Cascade @ 15
10g Centennial @ 15

10g Amarillo @ 10
10g Cascade @ 10
10g Centennial @ 10

10g Amarillo @ 5
10g Cascade @ 5
10g Centennial @ 5

20g Amarillo @ Flameout
20g Cascade @ Flameout
20g Centennial @ Flameout

20g Amarillo @ Dry hop
20g Cascade @ Dry hop
20g Centennial @ Dry hop

IBUs ~ 47

Too crazy? Too symmetrical?

G'day Brettski,

I'm just out of town for a couple of days so give me till Sunday and I'll get back to you. It looks fairly simple to what I plan on brewing for this years WASABC comp.

 

[danestead]

I stand corrected. I managed to find the next recipe I am to brew on another forum I am part of. As you can see, it is fairly similar to what you have suggested so I'd say yours will turn out just fine.

Dano's Hop Hog Clone (Recipe 4)

A ProMash Brewing Session Report
--------------------------------

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 25.00 Post boil
Total Grain (Kg): 5.74
Anticipated OG: 1.058 Plato: 14.29
Target FG: 1.014
Anticipated EBC: 14.4
Anticipated IBU: 54.7 Tinseth
Mash Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Alc by Volume: 5.8%


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
87.0 4.99 kg. Barrett Burston - Ale Malt Australia 1.038 6
10.0 0.57 kg. Weyermann Munich I Germany 1.038 15
3.0 0.17 kg. Weyermann Caramunich II Germany 1.035 125

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
35.00 g. Magnum Pellet 10.28 38.3 60 min.

12.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 5.5 15 min.
12.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 5.0 15 min.
12.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 5.9 15 min.

17.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.00 0.0 0 min. - 15min whirlpool at 70 deg
17.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.60 0.0 0 min. - 15min whirlpool at 70 deg
17.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.90 0.0 0 min. - 15min whirlpool at 70 deg

25.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.62 0.0 Dry Hop - Aim for 4 days of dry hop time
25.00 g. Cascade Pellet 7.93 0.0 Dry Hop - Aim for 4 days of dry hop time
25.00 g. Centennial Pellet 9.33 0.0 Dry Hop - Aim for 4 days of dry hop time

Wort is immersion chilled immediately at flame out to 70 degrees for the 15min whirlpool/hopstand and then plate chilled to the fermenter.

Yeast
-----

WYeast 1272 American Ale II with starter for correct pitch rate.

Water Profile
-------------

RO/DI water built to the following proile.

Profile: Dano's American Ale v2
Profile known for:

Calcium(Ca): 110.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 20.0 ppm
Sodium(Na): 15.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 150.0 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 50.0 ppm

Mash pH: 5.4 - adjusted at start of mash with Lactic acid


Mash Schedule
-------------

Dough In Temp: 38 Time: 0
Acid Rest Temp: 0 Time: 0
Protein Rest Temp: 66 Time: 20
Intermediate Rest Temp: 67 Time: 40
Saccharification Rest Temp: 72 Time: 10
Mash-out Rest Temp: 76 Time: 10
Sparge Temp: 0 Time: 0


Fermentation Specifics
----------------------

Pitched From: Starter
Primary Temperature: 18 degrees C until 1.020 gravity and then 22 degree diacetyl rest. Leave the beer on the yeast for minimum 3 days once FG is reached then chill to 1 deg for clarification.

 

[brettski]

That looks amazing mate! I've decided to scale down the Munich and Caramunich a touch. I'll report back on progress...

 

[brettski]

That looks amazing mate! I've decided to scale down the Munich and Caramunich a touch. I'll report back on progress...

 

[Brewhart]

Great recipe Danestead. Just finishing the first of 2 kegs I brewed a month ago. Did a side by side comparison with the real thing last night flavour was pretty close.

The clone is on the right

 

[danestead]

I've just kegged a single hop version of the recipe at post #136 using Comet hops.

The Comet Hop Hog has turned out well. It has cleared nicely with the 1272 and no additional filtering/gelatine etc etc (cheating). I'm pretty impressed at this stage with what Comet has brought to the table. This one started a few points low (1.055) so sits in that middle space of a strong APA and a weak AIPA. I plan on entering it in both categories in the WASABC. I replaced all but the bittering addition with Comet and made it to 52 IBU's rather than 55.