Caramelising First Runnings

[chappo1970]

And finally this:
Caramel is made by heating sugar slowly to around 170 C (340 F). As the sugar melts and approaches this temperature, the molecules break down and re-form into compounds with a characteristic caramel color and flavor. A variety of candies, confections, and desserts are made with caramel and its products: caramel apples, barley sugar, caramel with nuts (such as praline, nougat, or brittle), and caramel with custard (such as crme caramel or crme brle).

Ok so basically I reckon we are ALL doing it wrong. If you boil bejebuz out of the wort to reduce it your not actually caramelising the wort your either burning it or just reducing it.

Just my thoughts so far.

Cheers

Chappo

 

[OzMick]

Probably a bit of both, but mostly Maillard colour. When bubbles form on the surface of the kettle, the temperature of the metal surface can go > 100C (edit: if direct firing in particular, steam would alleviate this) and burnt on material can result when the bubble leaves or collapses. Which I believe is a reason why copper was traditionally used for kettles, different surface tension means that only smaller bubbles can form on copper whilst stainless has a tendency for bubbles to stick to the surface.

 

[BoilerBoy]

And this adds more to what BB was saying earlier:

Pyrolysis also plays an essential role in the production of barley tea, coffee, and roasted nuts such as peanuts and almonds. As these consist mostly of dry materials, the process of pyrolysis is not limited to the outermost layers but extends throughout the materials. In all these cases, pyrolysis creates or releases many of the substances that contribute to the flavor, color, and biological properties of the final product. It may also destroy some substances that are toxic, unpleasant in taste, or those that may contribute to spoilage.

Controlled pyrolysis of sugars starting at 170 C (340 F) produces caramel, a beige to brown water-soluble product which is widely used in confectionery and (in the form of caramel coloring) as a coloring agent for soft drinks and other industrialized food products.

Chappo

I guess this is the issue concerning what temps are being reached in the boilng down process, as I mentioned in Bribie's Super Landlord thread as in the link above "caramelisation" is more of an instant result with temps over 170C. Where as Maillards seems to occur during the length of a longer boil down and may actually cease once the water levels decrease beyond a certain level.

BB

 

[drtomc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction

Just sime basic info on the effect of Maillards reaction.

Cheers,
BB

Aaarrgghh! Wikipedia strikes again. linky

T.

 

[bum]

Aaarrgghh! Wikipedia strikes again. linky

T.

Huh! There actually is a "wet t-shirt competition" entry.

Erm... :icon_offtopic:

 

[drtomc]

Ok so basically I reckon we are ALL doing it wrong. If you boil bejebuz out of the wort to reduce it your not actually caramelising the wort your either burning it or just reducing it.

Well, not just reduce it, but also encourage the Mailard reactions.

Factoid: I recall from Farmhouse Ales, that some Saisons were traditionally boiled for many (4-7 from memory) hours leading to significant darkening of the wort. This would be Mailard reactions. Presumably contributing flavour complexity too.

T (who, according to SWMBO makes the toast too dark. Clearly I *like* Mailard reaction products).

 

[chappo1970]

Probably a bit of both, but mostly Maillard colour. When bubbles form on the surface of the kettle, the temperature of the metal surface can go > 100C (edit: if direct firing in particular, steam would alleviate this) and burnt on material can result when the bubble leaves or collapses. Which I believe is a reason why copper was traditionally used for kettles, different surface tension means that only smaller bubbles can form on copper whilst stainless has a tendency for bubbles to stick to the surface.

Really good point.

I guess this is the issue concerning what temps are being reached in the boilng down process, as I mentioned in Bribie's Super Landlord thread as in the link above "caramelisation" is more of an instant result with temps over 170C. Where as Maillards seems to occur during the length of a longer boil down and may actually cease once the water levels decrease beyond a certain level.

BB

But it does point to the fact I reckon that you need to prepare your caramelised wort way before your brew day. That is if you want that extra authenic caramel punch, doe it not?

I guess I am forming the opinion (yes I have one) that just boiling the hell out of wort to reduce it is not the greatest answer. I going to specifically produce some wort for some experimentation in making beer caramels I feel. Oh gawd think of it BEER CARAMELS :icon_drool2:

Cheers

Chappo

 

[BoilerBoy]

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/med/research...on/melanoidins/

The opening paragraph of the above link would seem to indicate that the flavours being developed are infact melanoidins.

BB

 

[LLoyd]

Really good point.



But it does point to the fact I reckon that you need to prepare your caramelised wort way before your brew day. That is if you want that extra authenic caramel punch, doe it not?

I guess I am forming the opinion (yes I have one) that just boiling the hell out of wort to reduce it is not the greatest answer. I going to specifically produce some wort for some experimentation in making beer caramels I feel. Oh gawd think of it BEER CARAMELS :icon_drool2:

Cheers

Chappo

Just needs a handfull of BEERNUTS for a pretty wicked praline..

 

[bum]

Just to put a bit of perspective on this, Chappo. You mention that you're basically wanting to emulate BribieG's results right? Then why not just do it as he describes? He's obviously gotten the character you're looking for (as mentioned a few posts back). If you complicate his process aren't you moving away from his results?

 

[drtomc]

Oh gawd think of it BEER CARAMELS :icon_drool2:

It had already occurred to me that you could attempt caramel with a cup or two of DME. A pretty cheap and easy way to do a proof of concept.

T.

 

[AndrewQLD]

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/med/research...on/melanoidins/

The opening paragraph of the above link would seem to indicate that the flavours being developed are infact melanoidins.

BB

I agree, I think it might be that brewers are in fact using the wrong term and hence the confusion, it's definitely creating melanoidens and not caramel , as stated previously, it's 2 completely different processes.
If I used straight sugar at temp it would be caramel, straight wort results in a different product.

Andrew

 

[Bribie G]

Wouldnt you get break material forming in the kettle when you are draining the cooler 2nd runnings in?

Cheers
Steve

Lousy shot but if you squint hard you can see some break in the glass of boiled down wort. Also in my case the runnings are actually the 'whole' wort because being BIAB there arent any first runnings / second runnings as such. Also we are only talking about boiling down a couple of litres, not the whole of the first run. So maybe I should have been boiling four litres or so instead of just two? The idea of the exercise is just to add a bit of je ne sais quoi to the brew, not alter it radically.

I've been 'winging' it just based on what I have seen on forums and taking the suck and see approach. The batch I did last night turned out slightly more runny than kit goop and tasted delicious so if that's melanoidins as opposed to true caramel, I'm happy :icon_cheers:

 

[chappo1970]

Just to put a bit of perspective on this, Chappo. You mention that you're basically wanting to emulate BribieG's results right? Then why not just do it as he describes? He's obviously gotten the character you're looking for (as mentioned a few posts back). If you complicate his process aren't you moving away from his results?

Your right Bum but it doesn't seem overly thoughtout as a repeatable process does it (no offense BribieG not shooting down your method mate). I'm guess I'm looking for something like: make wort X from grains x, y and z to grav 1.060 in a 10lt batch. Boil by this method for x hours x mins.

Repeatable, predictable and completely usable for brewing, No?

Or maybe I'm just a Beer Geek?

Cheers

Chappo

Edit: @ Andrew Qld I reckon your right our terminology is all skewwif.

 

[Bribie G]

Chappo, I've done it a couple of times, first with the 'green dragon' ale I put in the case swap at Half-Fix's, and with the SuperLandlord you had a quaff of the other day, and again last night with the SuperLandlord II. Just seat of the pants method seems to produce fairly consistent result to my taste. Hey you're not thinking of setting up a retail microbrewery operation are you?

Go on, you know you really want to B)

 

[buttersd70]

To put the flavour that this produces into a bit of perspective....

Bribie was kind enough to sen me one of his Milds (that won a first :icon_cheers: )....

Now, when I got it, I knew what was in it, and how it was produced....cos he told me. :lol: So, the tasting wasn't blind. I knew how it had been done. Now, his Mild isn't entirely dissimilar to mine....

When I tasted it, I would have sworn, if I hadn't known different, that it had about 5-6% caraaroma in it.(my mild has 6% caraaroma in it.) So, thats what I think is probably closest to what the wort reduction/mailard reaction in the quantities talked about is like. 5% caraaroma....but has been hinted at, with a "feathered edge", so to speak, slightly smoother in transition than a straight cara- or crystal addition would give.

2c only, cos everyones taste perceptions are different. But that's how I percieve it.

 

[Bribie G]

Oops yes of course I forgot to list the mild as well. Again because it's a malt driven beer I wanted to get a bit more complexity into it. There's nothing worse than a dark beer where all you can taste is one flat malt (have a pot of Carlton Black to get the idea <_< ).

 

[bum]

Your right Bum but it doesn't seem overly thoughtout as a repeatable process does it

I'll agree that it isn't very scientific but if you work to the same method each time (throughout the entire brew day, not just the reduction process) then it is very repeatable. IMO, obviously. Nothing wrong with wanting to know the ins and out of a duck's bum it just looked to me like you were looking at the back end of a different animal entirely (you perv).

 

[hazard]

I'd love for someone to accurately describe how to get the caramel flavour (and colour) of the commercial British Ales. Lucky.

Lucky, its called brewers caramel

Here's a link (non-wiki)

http://www.caramel.com/a-189-623-Beverages...-Tech-Tips.aspx

 

[Renegade]

I agree, I think it might be that brewers are in fact using the wrong term and hence the confusion

I concur, and was never comfortable with calling the process outlined in this thread 'caramelising'. I am not doubting anyone's success in the end results though.

How's this for another angle on the process.... thoughts & comments appreciated. For those that use a lot of pale malts, how about reserving the 'flour' after each crush by seiving the grain, and when you have a decent amount, say 1/2 kilo (it may take a while), add this to a pot with a couple of litres of water and slowly 'cook' this at a gentle boil over a few hours ? Then add the resultant liquid to a regular all-pale malt brew.