Caramelising First Runnings

[Thirsty Boy]

Ozmick provided some nice info - you could get some minor "actual" caramelization happening in a boil - The phenomenon that Ozmick was talking about where the bubbles stick to the surface of the pot is known as Film Boiling. It is an issue in commercial breweries precisely because it allows higher surface temperatures in the pot and promotes burn on, this can affect flavour, does effect the efficiency of kettles and necessitates more intensive cleaning regimes. It is more common in direct fired systems, but can still happen with steam jacketed systems, one of the reasons they aren't all that common in big breweries anymore.

So if you were careful about stirring that involved scraping the bottom of the pot, you might be able to scrape up small amounts of true caramel and dissolve it into the wort before it just turns into char.

Film boiling usually occurs where there is to high a heat flux and where the surface is not very "wettable" - so the perfect conditions for it would be ... a thin walled, stainless pot, with an intense heat source over a small area. All that would add up to burn city under normal circumstances... but if you are diligent about scrape/stirring the pot while its boiling, you might make it work to your advantage. Consider the old fashioned kettles that had rotating arms trailing lengths of chain - they constantly scraped the bottom of the kettle during the boil for exactly this reason.

Also, the mailiard products produced during an intense, concentrated boil, are going to be quite different to the ones produced in a normal boil. Mailiard products depend on the moisture levels, the sugar concentration, the amino acids and their concentration, the temperature, the pH. You will get quite different ones in a very sugary, higher than 100C (from high sugar concentration) relatively low moisture - first runnings concentration boil, than you would by boiling a more dilute wort for hours and hours.

So you wont be able to emulate the flavour of someone who does an extended length boil, by boiling a concentrate - and visa versa. If you were trying emulate bribie .. you would have to take a sample of the whole, mixed wort and boil that ... because thats what he does (BIAB) - taking first running would produce a different result.

 

[AndrewQLD]

So you wont be able to emulate the flavour of someone who does an extended length boil, by boiling a concentrate - and visa versa. If you were trying emulate bribie .. you would have to take a sample of the whole, mixed wort and boil that ... because thats what he does (BIAB) - taking first running would produce a different result.

Would you think it would be a more intense flavor TB, given that the first runnings, especially in a batch sparge beer are of a high OG than the full batch? I imagine it's sort of concentrated already.

Andrew

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Would you think it would be a more intense flavor TB, given that the first runnings, especially in a batch sparge beer are of a high OG than the full batch? I imagine it's sort of concentrated already.

Andrew

Couldn't say Andrew - Really I am just trotting out theory. Never tried it myself. I know that the Mailiard reactions will be "different" given different conditions... different how?? I have no idea. Sorry.

TB

 

[bradsbrew]

What would adding some citric acid during the boil down have on the end product. Only ask because this is what I done for a during ferment addition to a stout. Boiled down a combo of syrup,sugar, honey, vanilla with some citric added. At flame out I threw in three espesso bags, this went into an 11 batch fermenting with 1275 on day 2. Tasted like coffee toffee.
My original reason for the citric was to help the yeast eat through it. But I am thinking of adding some citric to the boil down of some first runnings my next brew.
Brad

 

[luckyeatwell]

Without derailing the conversation on wort "caramelisation", I'd like to gather some opinion on how best to get that sweet caramel flavour into AG homebrew british ales.

I mentioned in my earlier post that wort caramelisation has been a disapointment for me. I've also tried adding cararoma crystal malt @ around 5%, which hasn't satisfied my tastes either.

Hazard suggests Brewers Caramel - which I'm sure is the true and correct answer to my problem, but it looks to be the sort of product sold in 44 gallon drums to commercial brewers, and not likely to be available to the rest of us.

Has anyone any insight into the manufacture of brewers caramel. The website linked by Hazard talks up colour shift more than anything in the flavour department - but toward the bottom of the page there's discussion of products known as "brewing syrups" which by the description are part fermentable sugar, part caramel colour (can be used in the kettle or for priming).

The blog "Shut Up about Barclay Perkins" has plenty of recipes and posts that discuss the use of sugars and caramels in british ales through the last century and makes plenty of mention of Invert sugars, Types 1, 2 and 3.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search/...brewing%20sugar

Invert type 1 is often equated to Golden Syrup. Inverts Type 2 and 3 I would assume to be somewhat similar to the Amber and Dark Candi sugars we're familiar with use in Belgians.

As a homebrewer I'm not looking to buy 44 gallons of brewers caramel - I need to know how to reproduce it on the stove-top with whatever I can buy around town.

Any tips would be helpful.

Cheers,

Lucky.

 

[hazard]

Without derailing the conversation on wort "caramelisation", I'd like to gather some opinion on how best to get that sweet caramel flavour into AG homebrew british ales.

I mentioned in my earlier post that wort caramelisation has been a disapointment for me. I've also tried adding cararoma crystal malt @ around 5%, which hasn't satisfied my tastes either.

Hazard suggests Brewers Caramel - which I'm sure is the true and correct answer to my problem, but it looks to be the sort of product sold in 44 gallon drums to commercial brewers, and not likely to be available to the rest of us.

Has anyone any insight into the manufacture of brewers caramel. The website linked by Hazard talks up colour shift more than anything in the flavour department - but toward the bottom of the page there's discussion of products known as "brewing syrups" which by the description are part fermentable sugar, part caramel colour (can be used in the kettle or for priming).

The blog "Shut Up about Barclay Perkins" has plenty of recipes and posts that discuss the use of sugars and caramels in british ales through the last century and makes plenty of mention of Invert sugars, Types 1, 2 and 3.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search/...brewing%20sugar

Invert type 1 is often equated to Golden Syrup. Inverts Type 2 and 3 I would assume to be somewhat similar to the Amber and Dark Candi sugars we're familiar with use in Belgians.

As a homebrewer I'm not looking to buy 44 gallons of brewers caramel - I need to know how to reproduce it on the stove-top with whatever I can buy around town.

Any tips would be helpful.

Cheers,

Lucky.

How to brew belgian candy sugar by graham sanders

http://oz.craftbrewer.org/

 

[Kai]

You could also look at tailoring your yeast strain / fermentation conditions to (shudder) increase diacetyl production.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The vast majority of brewers caramel is used as a colour tailoring adjunct - check the colours out on that website... 20,000+ ebc. You wouldn't be able to use enough of it to make a flavour impact without making your beer black. We use it at work and it takes a massive 2kg extra to raise the colour of 100,000L by an EBC point. So that would be 0.5 of a gram per ebc point in a 23 batch. From light lager to stout in under 50g. Not a lot of room for flavour there. And I have tasted it ... basically no flavour anyway.

Brewers caramel is usually made in the same way as glucose syrups. acid/pressure/temperature hydrolysis of starches from wheat or maize. Glucose syrups can essentially be tailored to any desired composition of solids, fermentables, different sugar types and colour.

I would be looking towards things like belgian dark candi syrups, treacles, mollasses etc for "dark" sugary flavours in homebrew.

TB

 

[RdeVjun]

Folks, this has been a really interesting thread, so firstly thanks heaps. I just thought I'd share some of my experiences with reducing wort to get some caramel flavours. I've been messing with the 100% GP + 'caramelization' thingy for a while now, a TTL-esque ESB has been my target and while some batches have been pretty ordinary, some quite OK, the odd pearler, unfortunately there's been no holy grail to speak of yet.
However, the most encouraging results I've had so far have been with the process of reducing a few litres of wort, but only by taking it almost to the point of burning it on to the pot, i.e. as per TB's 'true caramel'. I'm not sure what the cooks would call it, but the reduced wort ends up as a thick and much darker, toffee- like syrup, and once it starts to stick to the bottom of the pan, almost burning it on, then that's been the point to stop. Reducing in a wide pan with a thicker base seems to be better, a thin- based stockpot might leave the heat (I use gas) just too localized, but I note TB's comments about film boiling too.
After reducing, rather than trying to pour it into the boil, it is quite thick and sticky and will take for ever to scrape it all out plus there's not much to play with (only a few cups- full) and we don't want to waste any, just pour a few litres of the boil wort in and dissolve it, then add it all back into the boil. Be sure to scrape off the brown film that sticks to the bottom of the pot too, eventually it can all be retrieved this way.
This seems to be getting closer to the mark, I'm not 100% satisfied yet but getting closer. BTW, I use a dunk- sparging BIAB process and I grab some of the 'first runnings', for the want of a better term, usually >1.060, for the reduction. I think reducing 2 litres would be a minimum, 3 seems fine so far and today I'm planning to reduce 4. The other thing I really favour are the flavours, the colour is of no great concern to me personally, its just a convenient side- effect.

I also wonder about lowering the reduction's pH with citric acid, did you try that at all Brad, BribieG or anyone else? I've noticed that FG with these seems to end up a bit higher, so wondered if inverting some more might help get FG back down where I'm more accustomed. BTW, has anyone measured the commercial products' (i.e. bottle and cask) SGs?

Again, FWIW, these are just my experiences. I'm keen to test other methods and ingredients too, and while I've messed around with spec malts, for these reduction experiments, I've just used 100% GP to keep things simple, with 1469, sulphate- emphasised water, Fuggles, EKG and Styrian to 30 - 35IBUs as per usual. Its a given that straight, no- twist 100% GP is fairly uninteresting, but it sure can be spruced up! :icon_cheers:

 

[Bribie G]

Rde we seem to be pretty much on the same track, as you say the BIAB runnings are obviously much thinner than the first runnings from a 3V system and I've been reducing 2L to about 300ml but haven't taken it as far as yours, yet. Next time :icon_cheers: I think what I have been getting is melanoidins production rather than caramel and I've also been using a bit of Munich, choc and crystal so that would also mask things. Next time I'll just go the GP, and go back to Landlord rather than SuperLandlord :icon_chickcheers:

 

[Ross]

I fully caramelised 5L of 1st runnings while brewing my Imperial Hopped Mild.
It took 50 minutes on high flame in my kettle to reach the point where the wort turned to toffee as I pulled a sample.
Tasted devine - Not sure if it will be noticable in a 1.9% Mild, hopped to 150 ibu's, but will know later today when I keg it.

Will be on tap from Monday in the shop.

Cheers Ross

 

[RdeVjun]

Rde we seem to be pretty much on the same track, as you say the BIAB runnings are obviously much thinner than the first runnings from a 3V system and I've been reducing 2L to about 300ml but haven't taken it as far as yours, yet. Next time :icon_cheers: I think what I have been getting is melanoidins production rather than caramel and I've also been using a bit of Munich, choc and crystal so that would also mask things. Next time I'll just go the GP, and go back to Landlord rather than SuperLandlord :icon_chickcheers:

Yeah, at 2L:0.3L reduction ratio, for sure there's a certain change in the malt and sugar characters, to taste directly it is rather nice (once it cools!), there's 'bent' sugars, melaniodins etc, but I reckon those flavours get diluted and become almost undetectable in a full batch, swamped by everything else that goes on or perhaps just digested by the yeast. This is why I was looking to take the process further and with larger amounts, particularly with the 'first runnings' being dilute compared to 3-V. (Many 3-Vers measure this?)
Like a lot of things, its hard though to know when to stop, I've just been such a fairy when doing this before as I was sure I was going too far, but now that I've taken the process to this point I'm much more comfortable and it seems to be giving very decent results.
With the specs, I'll probably start adding them back in at some point once I'm happy that I've explored the caramel path as far as I can or still have the patience.
I am a bit worried about my latest, a smaller 15L batch which is struggling to get below 1.020. It was 1.023 a few days ago and I seemed to rouse it sucessfully, hopefully it continues but with it being a small I'll be losing a fair proportion to samples at this rate! Usually the 1469 gets to 1.012 and lower with ease, even hyperattenuated to 1.008 once, maybe these more complex sugars are tougher for it to digest, will see if inverting helps with today's batch but still retains these elusive flavours.
I still reckon your SL is a cracker though, knocked my socks off! BTW, the SL has been a stimulus for another experiment I've got slated- earlier hop additions instead of the usual late ones.

I fully caramelised 5L of 1st runnings while brewing my Imperial Hopped Mild.
It took 50 minutes on high flame in my kettle to reach the point where the wort turned to toffee as I pulled a sample.
Tasted devine - Not sure if it will be noticable in a 1.9% Mild, hopped to 150 ibu's, but will know later today when I keg it.

Whoa! 150 IBU in a Mild Ross? :blink: Typo? Even so, I would dearly love to sample that- I might actually get to set foot in the store for once!
I reckon you've got a better chance of a fuller low- alc brew with more body (plus the caramels of course) with this method, is this what you had in mind?

Yeah it takes for ever to reduce, even with my domestic gas stovetop going full tilt it still takes a while to bring the stockpot with the rest of the wort up to the boil, so I have a bit of time on my hands at that point, plus I'm dunk- sparging while all this is going on too. So it sort of fits into the process and its not too chaotic.

Many thanks chaps!

 

[Ross]

Whoa! 150 IBU in a Mild Ross? :blink: Typo? Even so, I would dearly love to sample that- I might actually get to set foot in the store for once!
I reckon you've got a better chance of a fuller low- alc brew with more body (plus the caramels of course) with this method, is this what you had in mind?

It's actually 170 IBU's SG 1040, FG 1025. 1.9%alc. Mashed at 70c & used Windsor yeast - Fully fermented out in 24 hours.
Looking forward to tasting it this afternoon once filtered & kegged - The hydro samples are too full of hops to taste it properly.

 

[reviled]

It's actually 170 IBU's SG 1040, FG 1025. 1.9%alc. Mashed at 70c & used Windsor yeast - Fully fermented out in 24 hours.
Looking forward to tasting it this afternoon once filtered & kegged - The hydro samples are too full of hops to taste it properly.

Interesting that you used Windsor, as that strain normally masks the hops a little, is that why you chose it? not that it will stand a chance to hide much

 

[Screwtop]

Forgetting theory or malliard reactions, caramelisation etc. What I did six months ago was to brew an old english recipe which called for a reduction of some wort to add complexity and colour. Take some wort off prior to hopping, reduce it down then add it back, I do 2L down to 300ml. I'm sure Bribie won't mind if I divulge myself as the source of this whole debacle. After telling him he tried the same thing with great success and the rest is history. Lots of UK brewers use the method it's nothing new, and it really is only a reduction. Anyway for those interested in caramelisation have a look at this brewers method of making a TTL clone using caramelisation HERE

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Sammus]

It's actually 170 IBU's SG 1040, FG 1025. 1.9%alc. Mashed at 70c & used Windsor yeast - Fully fermented out in 24 hours.
Looking forward to tasting it this afternoon once filtered & kegged - The hydro samples are too full of hops to taste it properly.

170IBU? I didn't think alpha acids were that soluble... it would be interesting to get it tested at a lab and see how how it actually is...

 

[Ross]

170IBU? I didn't think alpha acids were that soluble... it would be interesting to get it tested at a lab and see how how it actually is...

Nowhere near I'm sure - it's just theoretical. In such a low gravity wort though I'm guessing it should be pretty high.

Cheers Ross

 

[Bribie G]

Forgetting theory or malliard reactions, caramelisation etc. What I did six months ago was to brew an old english recipe which called for a reduction of some wort to add complexity and colour. Take some wort off prior to hopping, reduce it down then add it back, I do 2L down to 300ml. I'm sure Bribie won't mind if I divulge myself as the source of this whole debacle. After telling him he tried the same thing with great success and the rest is history. Lots of UK brewers use the method it's nothing new, and it really is only a reduction. Anyway for those interested in caramelisation have a look at this brewers method of making a TTL clone using caramelisation HERE

Cheers,

Screwy

You certainly set things in motion :icon_cheers: and I still haven't even attempted that Samuel Smiths Old Brewery Bitter :lol:

 

[RdeVjun]

You certainly set things in motion :icon_cheers: and I still haven't even attempted that Samuel Smiths Old Brewery Bitter :lol:

:blink: You're joking?? I just opened a bottle of that this very afternoon, big brother picked it up at Nectar in West End last weekend for me (they had no TTL, dammit...). Nice, thoroughly bitter, maybe too much for my taste, good malt characteristics though, just not as aromatic as I prefer, but still a mighty fine drop. I thought about reculturing, decided I'd better not- I have enough yeast strains on hand ATM!

Getting back to the caramelization, reducing three litres with citric seems to be over a critical mass/ threshold where burning is minimised while also getting a good proportion of toffee happening. A great foaming mass which expands, then contracts and deepens in colour, but with minimal burning while still hitting 'soft ball' if I remember my cookery correctly (I tested it). Colour when diluted into a full- sized wort is good, a yellowy- golden hue, so not like urine any more, and with flavours being something to behold. Can't wait to drop a WY starter in this one!

Edit: Screwy, you have a lot to answer for BTW!

 

[Screwtop]

:blink: You're joking?? I just opened a bottle of that this very afternoon, big brother picked it up at Nectar in West End last weekend for me (they had no TTL, dammit...). Nice, thoroughly bitter, maybe too much for my taste, good malt characteristics though, just not as aromatic as I prefer, but still a mighty fine drop.

Thats pretty much how it turned out too!

You certainly set things in motion :icon_cheers: and I still haven't even attempted that Samuel Smiths Old Brewery Bitter :lol:

Heyup Lad, get t'brewin

Screwy