Caramelising First Runnings

[muckanic]

If we are caramelising all-malt wort, is there much point in converting the maltose sugar? (maltose being two glucose molecules, generally consumable by the yeast) and does it even do anything?

Fix claims that all-malt worts contain about 10% glucose. That is most likely due to thermal hydrolysis of maltose, so it obviously only occurs partially. Adding some acid would most likely accelerate the process. Note that the acid is a catalyst, ie, it isn't consumed in the reaction, just makes it happen faster. It can also be achieved with base, and I seem to recall ammonia being used for caramelisation (the advantage presumably being that it can be evaporated off). A prolonged boil (as in Flanders reds) probably also results in more glucose. Whether this is a good thing or not is another matter. It may very well be that hydrolysis, dehydration and pyrolysis are all occurring simultaneously. Reality tends to get messy like that.

IMHO, the terms inversion and isomerisation are often used misleadingly in brewing and certain other fields as they (to me at least) suggest some sort of optical or right/left handed effect which may not necessarily be the case.

 

[RdeVjun]

A prolonged boil (as in Flanders reds) probably also results in more glucose. Whether this is a good thing or not is another matter. It may very well be that hydrolysis, dehydration and pyrolysis are all occurring simultaneously. Reality tends to get messy like that.

Yeah, I'm in complete agreeance muckanic, all of these processes taking place simultaneously makes this caper appear pretty complicated, hard to understand and then to replicating it reliably isn't simple either.
However, I feel I'm getting close to where I wanted to be with my process, and the good thing is I've discarded a few factors like citric acid and spec malts along the way. Seems to be repeatable enough, the results are encouraging so far, albeit there could be more data of course.
The only thing I'm looking to change with the next one is lowering the temperature slightly once it reduces after frothing up to minimise burning, but there's got to be a teensy bit of smoke or it is just no fun! I'm guessing this is the business end of the operation, but I also get the feeling that it doesn't get there without all the hydrolysis and dehydration, and perhaps even pyrolysis of various sugars before then. (Uneducated guessing, BTW.) :icon_cheers:

 

[muckanic]

However, I feel I'm getting close to where I wanted to be with my process, and the good thing is I've discarded a few factors like citric acid and spec malts along the way. Seems to be repeatable enough, the results are encouraging so far, albeit there could be more data of course... (Uneducated guessing, BTW.) :icon_cheers:

I oversimplified it all by neglecting to mention Maillard reactions! I'm wondering whether simple sugars might combine better with amino acids (also pure speculation BTW). :icon_cheers:

 

[manticle]

Had a crack at this before but really just reduced a bit of wort.

Today making a robust porter of sorts I forgot about it and the smell of burniness made me think I had stuffed it.

However the burniness was simply a touch of boiled over malt onto the stove.

This was the results: malt toffee.

mmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[RdeVjun]

Yep manticle, that's the sticky, gooey, delicious stuff we need! I am presently mashing some GP for another batch.

What was the wort SG and pre- & post- volumes if you don't mind me asking?

 

[manticle]

Yep manticle, that's the sticky, gooey, delicious stuff we need! I am presently mashing some GP for another batch.

What was the wort SG and pre- & post- volumes if you don't mind me asking?

I don't always measure SG (and didn't this time around). According to brewing software expected SG should be 1040 and OG 1061. I always measure OG but the main wort is still boiling. Due to pot size restrictions I often have to do 2 boils. First lot is chilled, second lot is coming to the boil as I write.

Pre volume is around 34 litres, aiming for 22 litres but I reckon I'll get closer to 26/27.

That goo was the result of about 3.5 litres in a fry pan. No idea how much difference it will make but at least now I know what to aim for. Tasted like burnt toffee and this porter is aiming for toast, coffee and toffee flavours so she should fit in nicely.

 

[RdeVjun]

I don't always measure SG (and didn't this time around). Always measure OG but the main wort is still boiling. Due to pot size restrictions I often have to do 2 boils. First lot is chilled, second lot is coming to the boil as I write.

Pre volume is around 34 litres, aiming for 22 litres but I reckon I'll get closer to 26/27.

That goo was the result of about 3.5 litres in a fry pan. No idea how much difference it will make but at least now I know what to aim for. Tasted like burnt toffee and this porter is aiming for toast, coffee and toffee flavours so she should fit in nicely.

Yep, I know it might seem weird, but starting with 3 litres seems to be above a threshold where, when it reduces down, the burning isn't quite as bad as with a smaller volume, at least for my pot. My inwards SG is usually about 1.060 and I end up with less than half a litre of toffee, closer to just a cupful, I wash it directly into the boil though.
So, I'm guessing there was some burning on the bottom of the pan? That's the point where I usually stop, when stirring with a spatula there is still some stuck to the bottom of the pot which is starting to burn.
One thing I've found is that fermentables take a knock, one batch just refused to drop below 1.018, even a couple of small test bottles with fresh yeast and a sprinkle of sugar refused to budge, so I'm bottling it (tastes divine BTW).

Oh, and it might've been fun trying to keep all that sugary goo in a fry pan when it froths up towards the end!! I use a 12 litre pot, always allow plenty of room for the froth- up near the end. At least, that's what happens with mine.
:beer:

Edit: Thanks for the photos BTW!

 

[pdtnc]

Thats some serious Dark toffee!!!

 

[manticle]

Yep, I know it might seem weird, but starting with 3 litres seems to be above a threshold where, when it reduces down, the burning isn't quite as bad as with a smaller volume, at least for my pot. My inwards SG is usually about 1.060 and I end up with less than half a litre of toffee, closer to just a cupful, I wash it directly into the boil though.
So, I'm guessing there was some burning on the bottom of the pan? That's the point where I usually stop, when stirring with a spatula there is still some stuck to the bottom of the pot which is starting to burn.
One thing I've found is that fermentables take a knock, one batch just refused to drop below 1.018, even a couple of small test bottles with fresh yeast and a sprinkle of sugar refused to budge, so I'm bottling it (tastes divine BTW).

Oh, and it might've been fun trying to keep all that sugary goo in a fry pan when it froths up towards the end!! I use a 12 litre pot, always allow plenty of room for the froth- up near the end. At least, that's what happens with mine.
:beer:

Edit: Thanks for the photos BTW!

Initially I had two much smaller pots on but they frothed up almost immediately. The wide based pan seemed much better suited - slowly simmered and reduced away. There was very little burnt material on the bottom - a little bit but I was expecting from the smell to have to chuck it. Lucky I waited. As mentioned the burning was actually the stove rather than the caramel and being smart I tasted some cooled caramel before deciding to turf the lot.

It got stirred in towards the end of the boil.

Now I know what to expect so I'll be doing it for anything darker than golden as I love toffee and caramel. Hopefully it shines through.

 

[muckanic]

Re pre and post boil volumes, I would typically obtain about 5L of SG 100 first runnings from a standard batch. An implication there is that I am either getting a high mashing efficiency or I am mashing stiff, correct in both cases. Those runnings represent about 40% of the total extract from the mash. I wouldn't reduce them down in anything but a 3X bigger pot, so that would take a heck of a big frying pan or wock! Terminal gravities tend to be around 20, which I guess could be considered to be a bit of a problem, depending upon style. It is probably an argument for either not caramelising the lot, or for employing an extended beta amylase rest (like around 60C). I haven't tested whether that residual sugar gets slowly eaten in the bottle over the course of 6 months or so, but that is a distinct possibility.

 

[RdeVjun]

Re pre and post boil volumes, I would typically obtain about 5L of SG 100 first runnings from a standard batch. An implication there is that I am either getting a high mashing efficiency or I am mashing stiff, correct in both cases. Those runnings represent about 40% of the total extract from the mash. I wouldn't reduce them down in anything but a 3X bigger pot, so that would take a heck of a big frying pan or wock! Terminal gravities tend to be around 20, which I guess could be considered to be a bit of a problem, depending upon style. It is probably an argument for either not caramelising the lot, or for employing an extended beta amylase rest (like around 60C). I haven't tested whether that residual sugar gets slowly eaten in the bottle over the course of 6 months or so, but that is a distinct possibility.

Many thanks muckanic, that's really interesting and some enormous numbers there!
I have been concerned that much of the total extract is no longer fermentable, a recent one stopped at 1.018 and others 12 to 14. But mine are usually 3 or 4 out of 12 litres of first runnings at 1.060, so fairly low proportions.
With that in mind, I am tempted to just mash up a stiff one purely to caramelise the whole lot and distribute this over several subequent batches. But, are you mashing low and mashing long as well as incorporating the stiff mash? Would you recommend this? It would fit better into my brewday if I could just whip out a few hundred mls of previously- prepared caramel and bung that into the boil rather than pissfart around over a steaming/ smoking stockpot for an hour or so, albeit while the boil is underway.

Now, not that TTL is the be- all and end- all, but for me it is a fairly good aiming point FWIW, but the thing that bothers me with this is that the bottled commercial TTL is about 1.010 - 1.011 so there's not much of this stuff going into theirs, or else they have some method to keep it fermentable. Maybe your last point is the key to this, the thing is most of mine just won't keep long enough, no matter how hard I try! :icon_drunk:
Oh yeah, I completely agree with you, and like I mentioned earlier, the bigger pot is a must for safety, at least at the heat rate I pump into them. Last night's effort peaked around 4/5th of the 12 litre stockpot full starting from just 3 litres of wort.

 

[muckanic]

With that in mind, I am tempted to just mash up a stiff one purely to caramelise the whole lot and distribute this over several subequent batches. But, are you mashing low and mashing long as well as incorporating the stiff mash? Would you recommend this?

I haven't deliberately mashed cool but probably should whenever I'm caramelising 40% of the extract or thereabouts. However, distributing the product over several (3-5?) batches would probably alleviate that need.

It would fit better into my brewday if I could just whip out a few hundred mls of previously- prepared caramel and bung that into the boil rather than pissfart around over a steaming/ smoking stockpot for an hour or so, albeit while the boil is underway.

Yeah, and the nice part is that if the caramel is dehydrated enough then it will keep at room temperature (could possibly oxidise however). Thinking outside the square: toss the caramel into the mash and see if the enzymes can eat it.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Would it not be easier to just take some DME and caramelize it like you would table sugar?? Then you are talking 5 minutes work rather than an hour. I cant imagine that there would be a perceptible quality difference between AG wort that someone else has sucked 98% of the water out of - and the wort you had to boil the snot out of for an hour to get to the same point.

When I make caramel for brewing I just:

Put the required weight of sugar into a little electric skillet - add enough water to make it a little wet - a pinch of citric acid (but it works without it anyway) - and boil till it gets dark. Pour it out onto a sheet of tinfoil to harden for later use or pour it straight into the kettle.

Takes a few minutes only and I cant see it being terribly different if you used DME rather than table sugar. It would make your volumes and OG calculations a lot easier, just develop the recipe so it hits your targets with X amount of DME as an ingredient; and proceed as normal. It shouldn't change anything but the flavour (and maybe the terminal gravity) if you happen to caramelize the DME on the way.

an idea anyway

Thirsty

 

[luckyeatwell]

In the past I've not had much success with caramelising wort, to impart any noticable caramel flavour. Reading this thread and looking at the process others have been applying, I can see that it's possible that I've not been reducing the wort far enough to appreciably "caramelise" (& other chemical conversions) the sugars.

On the weekend I put together a simple experiment to try and capture a process that will introduce the caramel flavours I'm after, in a repeatable fashion to be applied to my future recipes.

A mate and I brewed a "tribute" to Harvestoun's Bitter & Twisted (65% JW Pale, 25% TFMO, 10% JW Wheat: OG 1040), of which we made about 9L more than was required for the fermenter.

Of this 9L, one litre was reduced down to a bubbling mess, stuck to the bottom of a saucepan.

The remaining 8L was poured into QTY x 8, 2L coke bottles. In most instances, 0.9L in each coke bottle (with a couple of exceptions).

Into each separate 2L coke bottles we put an individual ingredient to make up an equivalent 10% addition. This was done by taking each ingredient and boiling/steeping it with some water to produce a 1040 wort, then measuring out 100ml.

Each bottle was filled to approx. 1L total volume.

5ml of active yeast slurry (WLP-013) was added to each bottle.

The individual batches are as follows (the remaining volume being the B&T wort):
1. 10% caramelised CSR treacle
2. 10% caramelised white sugar w citric acid - light
3. 10% caramelised white sugar w citric acid - medium
4. 10% caramelised white sugar w citric acid - dark
5. 10% Bairds Dark crystal malt (steeped)
6. 3% caraaroma (steeped) + 12% caramelised white sugar w citric acid - medium
7. 15% Reduced wort concentrate - rehydrated back to 1040.
8. Control.

There's plenty of error thorughout (e.g. note the level each bottle is filled too) - But then again, that's a fair description of every brew that I make, where the critical numbers that make up the wort that goes into the ferementer are never quite what's on the printed brew sheet.

 

[goomboogo]

luckyeatwell, keep us informed of your findings. I understand the method you choose for the future will come down to personal taste preference but the side by side should be very interesting. I like this type of small scale brewing experimentation as you may just answer your question in a very short space of time rather than brewing full batches of all the brews. Great initiative.

 

[RdeVjun]

(Slaps forehead...)
Wow, now that's trying just about everything out, great stuff lucky! No need for pissing around with initially testing mostly full batches, that's been the one painful thing for me and has taken just about for ever. About the only good side to doing it with full batches is there has been plenty of sample for a thorough 'critique'.
(/slap)

To be honest, even where I'm at with volumes and process over a dozen batches, caramelising hasn't quite given me the results I've been after (and I'm not trying to clone TTL either), although to be fair there are several still conditioning and fermenting. The caramel flavours aren't as pronounced as I'd expected but it is still a great leap from plain 100% GP with nothing special done to it, no doubt about it.
Seeing as I just bought another, I'll be continuing with this caper for say, at a rough guess, roughly one more bag of GP...

That's showing some real initiative and a fairly wide spectrum of testing, so keep up the great work lucky!
:beer:

 

[niggles]

...... QTY x 8, 2L coke bottles. In most instances, 0.9L in each coke bottle (with a couple of exceptions).

View attachment 32331

Dude... you've got a drinking problem. Don't you know Coke is bad for you!! I need to talk to your SWMBO about that again...

Seriously though I'm looking forward to tasting these. Remember we need to sample them all side-by-side on the same day. From tasting the few samples throughout the brewday I wont be surprised if the only decent "caramel" flavours are accompanied by the slightly acrid/burnt toffee notes in the darker brews. I'd be interested if anyone can shed light on how to reproduce caramel in a reasonably light coloured wort without any significant accompanying flavours (think Caramello Koalas).

In retrospect we should have done another 8 samples using the same worts but a more diacetyl prone yeast (WLP002/WY1968), since the buttery character accentuates the flavours we're after (Werther's Originals). But that would mean you'd need to consume more of the evil black liquid..... :unsure:

 

[neonmeate]

as coincidence would have it i just brewed a biere de garde round about the time this thread got going, and i tried to go for a la bavaisienne sort of thing, which according to markowski is made with only pilsener malt but with a violent boil that darkens the beer into amberness.
so i: *brewed a 1070 wort with just weyermann pilsener
*double decocted it with 30 minute boils of the decoction until the mash went a nice red colour
*caramelised 4L of first runnings down to just under a litre of goo (not sure if i did it enough but it was pretty thick and brown)
*gave it a hard 2 hr boil

and now that it's been bottled for a coupler weeks and the yeast has dropped out i can get a look at it. not much darker than a pilsner urquell dark gold, after all that. ah well. plenty of melanoidins (at least that what i think they are) in flavour though, much more than usual for an all pils malt grist, and a nice caramel flavour and aroma that's there but not dominant. my wife even tasted it and said "oh... caramel".
dunno what i can do to get it darker though! use black malt?

 

[bconnery]

Back in the extract brewing days I wanted to make a beer that was Flanders Red like.
I read a Belgian brewing book that suggested that in the past a lot of the colour was achieved using long boils rather than the malts.

So this was an extract beer so I steeped a few grains, added the extract and enough water to kind of fill my trusty 11L pot and let her boil away.
For 6 hours.

Definite caramelization and darkening.

Plus this was a sour orange beer, made with a sour variety so it had a little citric acid in there too.

This was for a long time the best beer I made. It took me a few attempts to really get close to this with AG.
I give it a good hour boil of around 4L and also caramelize the rind and a little juice with some brown sugar to add some more of the same flavours.

 

[TidalPete]

Just bumping this thread to say that I'm putting down my latest Scottish on Saturday & plan having a go at this caramelisation thing.
Problem is the only pot I have big enough to handle the expected boil over is my old Woolies 19 litre pot which is VERY thin around the bottom & I expect a lot of burning of the reduced wort on the electric stove.
To help counteract this I'm thinking of putting three bits of scrap ss sheet between the pot & the element when most of the wort is boiled off & caramelisation immanent.
Not at all sure if this quick fix will work or not but as I can't think of anything else will give it a go unless someone else has a better idea?

Waddayareckon?

TP