Braumeister NEXTGEN Build

[bradsbrew]

I started with my experimenting with this last night. It involves a 30L birko urn controlled with a stc100 and a 19L bigW pot. I have drilled a hole in the centre of the bottom of the pot and attatched a 9" false bottom which under lets. The urn is filled to 25L and brought up to 71 deg I then drained 10L into smaller pot and sat it into the urn. The mash was then recirced for 60 min, the water in the urn was brought to mash out temp then the mash was drained off. The rest of the water in the urn was then sparged through the mash vessel.
I found quite a few problems along the way but all will be easily fixed through better design.

Considering the only cost was the $20 pot from bigW it was too bad , 20L of 1044 aussie bitter ale. With a few changes I should be able to get the results and if it works then upsize.

Once I have it sitting better I'll post up the pics. No where near as good as Matho's but it works.

Cheers

 

[Tony]

This is the part I've struggle with as well as I want to use standard SS pots, which means I'm limited to certain dimensions and volumes. Once you start to consider mash thickness (4.6-5.75 L/kg for 20L Braumeister), whether you want to do any sparging, potential system boil off rates, keeping the element covered etc it is complicated to determine the most appropriate sized malt pipe.

I'm thinking of going with a larger than needed pot for the malt pipe to increase surface area of the malt pipe and then drilling an overflow hole in the side of the pot where the wort can flow out of rather than having to flow over the pot rim - the top filter would obviously sit below the hole. The hole can then be sealed (yet to figure out how) if I want to brew a high gravity beer as the extra grain and mash liquor would be enough to fill the entire malt pipe and keep the element covered.

Cheers,
Hosko

Hold that thought........... im off to bed now but i have done some research and have done some thinking tonight...... and its easy to work out.

Tomorrow

 

[Tony]

Ok..... up and mash is in

This is only my idea on the subject and Matho can probably let us know what he did..... but........

First i have worked out hoy deep i want the minimum liquid level to be in the main pot, to ensure the element is well covered at all times no matter what. I have worked out about 200mm of liquid will be safe.

In my pot that is 36.2 liters calculated here as a cylinder:

http://www.calculatoredge.com/enggcalc/volume.html

now given that my mash volume will be about 55 liters if i add 50 liters of water and 10kg of malt......... that leaves me 18.8 liters in the malt tube above this 200mm height.

So if the tube will be a total of 400mm high and 350mm diameter (pot total diameter is 480mm) I get 19.2 liters for the 200mm of malt pipe sticking out of the 200mm of liquid in the bottom and thats close enough for me.

just think of it as 2 seperate cylinders to calc the volume off.
1st: your base line minimum depth in the whole pot
2nd: the malt tube volune sitting above this.

I have worked this out figuring about 0.5L volume per kg of malt and will have to add some water at the end for boil off but thats fine. I think mine will end up about the same size as a 50L Braumeister.

If anyone can see a hole in this line of thought please say....... i assume these things run up around the 5L/kg mark? I wonder how that will effect efficiency?

 

[hosko11]

The mash thickness interpreted from the Braumeister manuals is:
4.6-5.75 L/kg - 20L Braumeister manual suggests 23L for 4-5kgs of grain
4.82-5.89 L/kg - 50L Braumeister manual suggests 53L for 9-11kgs of grain
So your 5L/kg is right in the ball park.

Your logic and calc's look fine. What are you using for the malt pipe?

I've actually calc'd what my system volumes are for various strength beers and will post shortly, but one variation of my system is that the malt pipe pot is actually raised off the floor of the kettle as I'm going to weld/solder a 4" clamp ferrule into the bottom of the malt pipe that I can push down on to the bottom of the pot in an attempt to ensure I get a good seal. I'll probably have a SS plate on the outside bottom of the pot to reinforce the base and ensure This might not make sense but I'll attempt to explain in more detail if your interested.
Cheers,
Hosko

 

[matho]

Matho,
I can't believe how quickly you've turned this thing around - hats off :icon_cheers:

I'm really intrigue to learn more about the controller build side of things. I've just ordered most of the materials to build mine, but am still trying to figure out the controller side of things. At the moment I'm considering Brewtroller, but now want to investigate the DIY approach after seeing whats possible!

I might have to pick your brain in the next few months on this stuff - along with quite a few others I'd reckon. Congrats.

Cheers,
Hosko

the brewtroller would definitely work but if you have some electronics skills then making your own is fairly simple, my HLT controller for my other system was made on proto board

Matho, Tony, all I can say is WOW!!
I hope blueprints will be available after the final versions are done, tested and any possible problems solved?

i will be posting all the info when it is sorted

This is the part I've struggle with as well as I want to use standard SS pots, which means I'm limited to certain dimensions and volumes. Once you start to consider mash thickness (4.6-5.75 L/kg for 20L Braumeister), whether you want to do any sparging, potential system boil off rates, keeping the element covered etc it is complicated to determine the most appropriate sized malt pipe.

I'm thinking of going with a larger than needed pot for the malt pipe to increase surface area of the malt pipe and then drilling an overflow hole in the side of the pot where the wort can flow out of rather than having to flow over the pot rim - the top filter would obviously sit below the hole. The hole can then be sealed (yet to figure out how) if I want to brew a high gravity beer as the extra grain and mash liquor would be enough to fill the entire malt pipe and keep the element covered.

Cheers,
Hosko

hosko,

you have to decide how big a beer you want to make and how much of it you want, i went with 11l of 1.060 which works out like this

37ppg x 2.2 x 3.78 = 308
308 x 0.75 = 231 points/kilo/liter at 75% efficiency
11 x 60 = 660
660/231 = 2.85 kg of grain

1 kg of grain displaces 0.65l of water
i use a 8l pot but with the filters in place its volume is 7.5l
2.85 x 0.65 = 1.85 l
(7.5 - 1.85)/ 2.85 = 1.98 l / kg inside the malt pipe
which is a bit on the low side but in my test the other day i had about 2.4l per kg and it flowed well but i got an extract efficiency of 80% with a crappy sparge so the 75% could be increased
I was in the same boat as you wanting to use ready made pots so i went with the 8l pot because it fitted the best with the element on the outside. Soon ill be doing more tests and if i need to go bigger ill have to make up a malt pipe

I started with my experimenting with this last night. It involves a 30L birko urn controlled with a stc100 and a 19L bigW pot. I have drilled a hole in the centre of the bottom of the pot and attatched a 9" false bottom which under lets. The urn is filled to 25L and brought up to 71 deg I then drained 10L into smaller pot and sat it into the urn. The mash was then recirced for 60 min, the water in the urn was brought to mash out temp then the mash was drained off. The rest of the water in the urn was then sparged through the mash vessel.
I found quite a few problems along the way but all will be easily fixed through better design.

Considering the only cost was the $20 pot from bigW it was too bad , 20L of 1044 aussie bitter ale. With a few changes I should be able to get the results and if it works then upsize.

Once I have it sitting better I'll post up the pics. No where near as good as Matho's but it works.

Cheers

brad, i cant wait to see it

cheers matho

 

[hosko11]

The mash thickness interpreted from the Braumeister manuals is:
4.6-5.75 L/kg - 20L Braumeister manual suggests 23L for 4-5kgs of grain
4.82-5.89 L/kg - 50L Braumeister manual suggests 53L for 9-11kgs of grain
So your 5L/kg is right in the ball park.

Sorry, mash thickness is probably not really the right term for the above. The mash thickness is probably defined by the volume of grain liquid between the 2 filters. For the 20L Braumeister this is about 17L.

 

[Tony]

The mash thickness interpreted from the Braumeister manuals is:
4.6-5.75 L/kg - 20L Braumeister manual suggests 23L for 4-5kgs of grain
4.82-5.89 L/kg - 50L Braumeister manual suggests 53L for 9-11kgs of grain
So your 5L/kg is right in the ball park.

Your logic and calc's look fine. What are you using for the malt pipe?

I've actually calc'd what my system volumes are for various strength beers and will post shortly, but one variation of my system is that the malt pipe pot is actually raised off the floor of the kettle as I'm going to weld/solder a 4" clamp ferrule into the bottom of the malt pipe that I can push down on to the bottom of the pot in an attempt to ensure I get a good seal. I'll probably have a SS plate on the outside bottom of the pot to reinforce the base and ensure This might not make sense but I'll attempt to explain in more detail if your interested.
Cheers,
Hosko

I know what your saying with the malt tube....... im planning on having one or 2 made out of rolled SS sheet with a plate lip on the base on the inside like Matho's cut out pot and may use something like a fermenter lid seal as a big o-ring. It will be about the sizeo f a tooheys keg.... a bit smaller at about 40 liters.

I think i will start a new thread for my build and discussions though...... i dont want to hijack Matho's thread.

 

[matho]

tony,
those figures look about right the mash thickness inside the malt tube ( which is essentially your mash tun) would be say

height of malt pipe - filter placement
40cm - (2cm + 2cm) = 36cm

volume = ((17.5^2 * pi)/1000)x 36 = 34.6 l

the grain would displace 6.5 l (0.65 x 10kg)

that would leave 28.1 l so the mash thickness would be 2.8 l/kg

on my system i mash in at 11l of water plus 2.5 kg of grain which gives me a total height 17cm and my malt pipe is 19.5 cm so when i turn the pump on the level will drop by the volume of the 2.5cm in the malt pipe which would be 1l that would drop the level on the outside by 3 cm. the height of the element is 10 cm so i am safely above the element by 4 cm

my outside pot is 31cm and my inside pot is 23 cm

cheers steve

edit: tony your more than welcome to hijack this thread

 

[riverside]

Fitty.......... you have me thinking, and that dangerous.

I have been reading a lot about the propper german units and i really like the idea of them....... and they look like very sterdy units. Buy you and I, as you know, are very alike.

For me its not about saving the cash........ while its an incentive ..... its about building something yourself.

I like the idea of making my own cause i can make it how i want it, and to operate how i want. Im a bit tired of the old Bulls Head 3V rig and i have been toying with ideas on an upgrade for a while............ your effort has sold me!

Here are the beginings i have on hand to use........ 100L SS pot, March 815 (or one of those 12v ones you have, they look the goods) Allen bradley Micrologix 1000 PLC (might look for a Micrologix 1100 as they have ethernet to connect to a HMI later on) and/or a Eurotherm 2208e PID controller (good bit of kit!) and a SS enclosure for it. Thinking of putting it on a stand made from SS on casters for mobility

Thinking of looking at a SSR to run the element and maybe one of these:

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...f47a5441c1c1660

Tony , i am also in the process of building one of these , same 100ltr pot.... What is the max ltrs of wort do you think could be made in a 100ltr pot ? Also what type/size heating element are you thinking of using ?

Cheers
Riverside

 

[Tony]

mmmmm didnt think about filter displacement........ i might up the height to 44 cm to get the mash up around the 3L/kg mark. I have 50cm to play with so should still fit in a bar and wing nut.

that gives me another 3.85 liters so just over 3L/kg.

Sounds good!

Thanks for crunching those numbers mate...... very helpful.

 

[matho]

here is some info on the element i got

View attachment Section_11___DIY_Elements_U_Bend_It.pdf

i got a custom made stainless steel version of UBI-CL-175 on page 11.3

they were not very cheap but they were helpfull and that counts for alot in my book

cheers steve

 

[Tony]

wow the 4800W im looking at is over 4m long

PERFECT

 

[riverside]

here is some info on the element i got

View attachment 49195

i got a custom made stainless steel version of UBI-CL-175 on page 11.3

they were not very cheap but they were helpfull and that counts for alot in my book

cheers steve

Thanks Matho, They look like the goods. BTW your rig looks great, top job mate !

Cheers
Riverside

 

[sp0rk]

I used to work for TEE, and I'll admit they do make a good product
just be careful not to go under the 16mm minimum bending radius, otherwise the coil will touch the sides and short out, or you'll split the tube and have magnesium oxide powder everywhere

 

[AlexL]

Matho, you've built an awesome piece of equipment!
Just read the thread for a second time, as I'm currently in the process of sourcing a heating element for my build, incase I missed where it was mentioned - should've just re-read the last page since yesteray.
Anyway, thanks for the link. Looking forward to getting this thing up and running.

 

[Tony]

Tony , i am also in the process of building one of these , same 100ltr pot.... What is the max ltrs of wort do you think could be made in a 100ltr pot ? Also what type/size heating element are you thinking of using ?

Cheers
Riverside

Sorry mate... i missed your post

I spoke to the element mob today and im looking at getting the same model as matho but 4800w

I worked out that it bent into a circle of about 420mm to fit between the pot wall and malt tube, it will bolt through at about 90 deg seperation to the rear of the pot........... PERFECT!

But only issue i can think of is the large loops of element will sag down and rest on the base of the pot. Thinking now how i can support them with something wasy to clean.


Another thought i had today......... a small adjustable port off the liquor return to the malt tube to pump back to the outer heating area. Im a bit concerned about the liquor on the oposite side to the pump inlet getting hotter due to less turnover. if a small portion is returned at an angle (1/4 bit of tube) to get a nice gentle wirlpool happening in the overlfow/heated area outside the malt tube, it should make the mash steps more efficient too.

But....... will the "path of least resistance" rule stuff this idea with all the wort going up the bug hole and bugger all going up the small one to make a worlpool?

Mmmmmmmmmm more to think about

 

[Cocko]

i dont want to hijack Matho's thread.

Firstly, amazing build Matho - Like you haven't had any pats on your back.. Great work.

I see Matho said its no prob to hijack the thread , please keep postings here Tony..

And all other builds - That way one thread ends up being a resource/recourse rather than everyone posting a new thread.. obviously a few are gonna do a build! I reckon keeping it all together is better than having separate build threads - Like "My first AG and X went wrong" threads - how many do we need!.. Look at the BIAB Toot thread an awesome resource fo any new BIAB'er etc...

AND it saves me us all from tracking more threads!

:icon_cheers:

BTW: PIX PIX PIX!

2.maltpipepoint4 cents.




Matho - Your thread, sorry, just sayin.

 

[matho]

Firstly, amazing build Matho - Like you haven't had any pats on your back.. Great work.

I see Matho said its no prob to hijack the thread , please keep postings here Tony..

And all other builds - That way one thread ends up being a resource/recourse rather than everyone posting a new thread.. obviously a few are gonna do a build! I reckon keeping it all together is better than having separate build threads - Like "My first AG and X went wrong" threads - how many do we need!.. Look at the BIAB Toot thread an awesome resource fo any new BIAB'er etc...

AND it saves me us all from tracking more threads!

:icon_cheers:

BTW: PIX PIX PIX!

2.maltpipepoint4 cents.




Matho - Your thread, sorry, just sayin.

I totally agree with you cocko it would be cool to keep it one thread, i have no problem with that

cheers matho

 

[AlexL]

Guys,

two more sources for 'bend it yourself' elements.
I ordered the BM73HO from Tobins yesterday and it ended up being $93 delivered to my door. Will let you know how it goes.


http://www.tobins.com.au/Datasheets/DIY.pdf

http://thermalproducts.com.au/catering%20e...ipheader.html#5 (bottom of page)

Alex

 

[stux]

With the 4800W elements...

what sortof power supply are you planning on using on that?

I have a relatively large UPS at my office with a 20A single phase plug on it and the plug on that thing looks like its out of the clock tower scene from back to the future!

dang.

And the plugs were ridiculously expensive too!