7hour Acid Rest, Now Ph4.8 - Just Continue With Mash? Using 100% Pale

[Bandito]

So I have a Reverse Osmosis water filter that today made water at about 8.1pH. I like pilsner beer and this is my third AG brew. Previously without an acid rest I got about 5.4pH using a ph meter.


This is the first time I tried an acid rest at 40 deg C and did it just to see what would happen. I will cut a long storey short and add a full blog at the end of this post as time permits.

At the moment I am 8 hours and 35 minutes into the mash.

I did an acid rest at 38 to 40 deg C for 7 hours. at the 6 hour and 10 minute mark the mash changed and became very cloudy and the pH came down drastically. I am currently at about 4.8pH and doing a long protease rest which is supposed to break up large proteins that form hase - it has worked and the cloudiness has gone.

The question now is do I just continue the mash at 60 deg C then 70 deg C as normal or do I increase the longth of time because of the low pH (4.8 instead of 5.2)?

Help please! I have 8.5kg of BB pils in a 40L pot that is waiting for a temp change any minute.

Latest update: at 8h 55mins after starting (1h 53mins after starting protease rest I lifted the lid on the mash tun and all of the froth has gone and only a few grains are left on top, the wort is all but clear - another drastic change!)

Bandito

 

[MHB]

I suspect that the Lactobacillus bacteria you have been lovingly culturing for the last 7 hours have finally overcome the natural buffering capacity of the mash and are generating free Lactic Acid into the mash water; that accounts for the low pH.

Sorry I am confused what are you trying to accomplish with such a novel mash regime?

MHB

 

[jonocarroll]

I'll leave detailed comment to someone who may better understand what it is you're doing, but I'm curious about your remarks of wort cloudiness in the mash - by cloudiness do you mean that looking down on the mash the liquid looks clear? If so, surely that's just the suspended particles dropping out. I didn't think that wort cloudiness in the mash was of any concern, and I thought that stirring all those particles up was a good idea.

I've certainly never heard of such a long acid rest. Perhaps you need to use some buffer, or just acidulated malt?

I will comment though that fully modified malts don't need a protein rest at all, in fact it's detrimental because those protein chains are a critical component of head formation and stability - don't be surprised if your resulting beer is thin and headless.

Actually - I am intrigued enough to ask; where did you get the idea of such a long mash schedule?

 

[Bandito]

I suspect that the Lactobacillus bacteria you have been lovingly culturing for the last 7 hours have finally overcome the natural buffering capacity of the mash and are generating free Lactic Acid into the mash water; that accounts for the low pH.

Sorry I am confused what are you trying to accomplish with such a novel mash regime?

MHB

Thats what I susspect too. I am trying to accomplish a traditional pilsner, but bviously I went too far and ended up making a sour mash. The sourness taste has reduced in the past 3 hours.

To answer Quantum brewer's question, the John Palmer book states on this page: http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ch14.html

"Pale lager malt is rich in phytin, an organic phosphate containing calcium and magnesium. Phytase breaks down phytin into insoluble calcium and magnesium phosphates and phytic acid. The process lowers the pH by removing the ion buffers and producing this weak acid. This stage is known as the Acid Rest but it is not used nowadays. It can take several hours for this enzyme to lower the mash pH to the desired 5.0 - 5.5 range. Today, through knowledge of water chemistry and appropriate mineral additions, proper mash pH ranges can be achieved from the outset without needing an acid rest."

By wort cloudiness I am referring to a freaky change in cloudiness without stirring. like I stirred then left it for 15 mins or so and took an sg and ph sample, then came back an hour later and took another sample without stirring and lo and behold it was a cloudy as hell! I was like WTF!

Still I need an answer - I am planning on doing one more rest at 153 deg F 67 degC which from the following quote from JP is a compromise temp for beta and alpha amylase rests. "The temperature most often quoted for mashing is about 153F. This is a compromise between the two tempe
ratures that the two enzymes favor. Alpha works best at 158F, while beta is denatured (the molecule falls apart) at that temperature, working best at 140F. The mash liquification function of alpha amylase is effective at temperatures as low as 120F." Quoted from http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ch14.html

Edit: And I do not want to use any 'mineral additions'. What I need is an enzymatic process that increases pH - any ideas? otherwise I will just increase times of the 67 degC rest - infact about to start now. 67 degC in 20 mins from time of post edit. Oh, and thanks for your replys, they did help a great deal. I learnt that this isnt done normally

 

[MHB]

Mate while you're learning first rule should be KISS.
If you just mash in at 65-67 C^o, keep it there for 1-1 hours and start running off slowly, you will make better beer than what I suspect you will get from this brew.
At its most basic beer really is very simple, get the basics right then build your knowledge and skills.

Luck with the brewing.
MHB

 

[Bandito]

Thats similar to my first (last) two AG brews, but last one mashed at 71C (just an error in temp calcs). Since I wanted to try brewing a 100% base malt as opposed to adding carapils like I had before I figured I would try this. So an update, I have heated to 68C and will keep it at that for mabee 2 hrs, awww, 1.5 hrs mabee. it is getting late but I planned for it - sort of... I have one more becks beer left and then I will have to delve into my first AG which was a 10L batch and has been conditioning in the fridge for 5 days. I'll chuck it in the soda strean and the results should help me with my next question reguarding hops. I only have 90gm of sazz hops but also 100gm hallertau and 50gm goldings. I wont use goldings in this as I think it is for ales but I am a newbee so correct me if I am wrong.

I am thinking 50gm hallertau and 50gm sazz at 90mins, then 25gm hallertau and 40gm sazz at 60mins, them 25gm hallertau at 5mins. havent put that into beersmith yet but will before doing. I am a but wary of using hallertau, I would prefer to use all sazz but until I try my first AG brew I wont know.

 

[clean brewer]

OMFG.... :blink:


Dont read into it too much just yet....

:icon_cheers: CB

 

[Bandito]

Yea, I am having a good laugh at that! I kept the last two simple, and just sat down with my first sip of my first AG brew just as I hit refresh. Going to take a while to get the commercial taste out of my mouth. It tastes clean as. Initially there is hoppiness, but no diacetyl due to brewing at 9C. I think I put all the hops in at 0mins. interesting nonetheless. Which is what I am doing now - one opposite to the next.

The question is: how long do I need to steep at 67C with a 4.8pH mash? 1.5h so far, I suppose I should determine the answer on the sg?

 

[Hogshead]

An iodine test will tell you when conversion is complete.

 

[bigfridge]

So I have a Reverse Osmosis water filter that today made water at about 8.1pH.

Bandito,

Could I ask why you are using RO water ?

To my knowledge there is no water in Oz that is not sutable for brewing as-is. Even in the USA where many people draw water from wells (and hence have RO filters on their house supply) it is recommended that brewing liquor be taken from before the filter.

I would echo the KISS advocates advice that you just go for a simple single infusion mash. Just remember that 'beer wants to be made' - the brewer just needs to keep out of its way.

HTH,

Dave

 

[Bandito]

I used my last iodine swab on a cut a few months back. but anyway I left the mash overnight. It now tastes sour so I guess I am making a sour pilsner! It cooled down to 49C so far and just heating some sparge water. pH is 5.0, and sg is 1.053. I am about to rack two other 20L pilsner batches in the fridge, I think I might add a few liters of this to one of them. The sourness reminds me of becks flavor, only heaps more sour.

I am using RO water because thats what I drink and cook with so I dont see why I shouldnt brew with it too. I was trying to create a 100% base malt pilsner and read that pilsner has very clean water so RO seemed well suited, but I wanted to achieve the proper pH which led to this sour mash. I realise now that the correct ph would have been achieved after 2.5 hours acid rest when it was 5.6pH. It took until 5 hours to get to 5.4, teking it to the 7.5 hour mark was a mistake, but seeing the mash change as the latic acid fermentation started was worth it.

 

[hughyg]

single infusion with a tbs of pH5.2 would have got what you want i think.

 

[bigfridge]

I am using RO water because thats what I drink and cook with so I dont see why I shouldnt brew with it too.

Well one good reason - you are not a yeast cell or a grain enzyme - they all need the salts that your RO system strips out.

Pilsen water is actually deficient for brewing (too soft) so this is why the long lagering period was traditionally needed.

It is fine to use RO water - but only as a base. You then need to rebuild the ionic concentrations to produce the conditions needed in the mash, boil and fermentation.

Unless you have a good knowledge of water chemistry, my advice for a beginning brewer would be to forget all about it as it is well down on the list of priorities. Once you have got the basics of mashing, sparging and boiling under control - then you can get benefits out of playing with your water.

To salvage this brew you should be adding a T spoon of Gypsum or Calcium Chloride to the mash or boil otherwise you are going to be calling back here for advice when you hit trouble at each stage.

David

 

[Jazzafish]

I think you missed the point to the John Palmer book. I believe his mention of acid rests were simply there to explain what happens at different temperatures of mashing, not what is required. As mentioned before, a mash in at 65 to 66*C is all that is required with modern malt, as the modern malting process has taken care of all that for you. After an hour rest at this temp, a sparge at 75 to 78*C (aka rinse) is used to collect the fermentables you created by mashing at this temperature.

Ph of the mash is important in some respects, but the lengths you have taken to achieve it is bordering insanity. You can get close enough to make a good brew without even considering it, as most australian water and grain combinations will convert within or close enough to the ph range needed. If you are still worried about the ph, get some ph stablizer. It works.

I also would like to state my belief that your RO water is not suitable without adding hardness. Again, Australian water is very good at brewing lagers. My water supply is only a little harder than pilsen water. No need to touch it.

 

[jayse]

I'll be interested in how this beer comes up, just out of morbid curiosity.

 

[Bandito]

In this page of the JP book: http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/ch14.html

"Pale lager malt is rich in phytin, an organic phosphate containing calcium and magnesium. Phytase breaks down phytin into insoluble calcium and magnesium phosphates and phytic acid."

So would that mean that the acid rest produced calcium and magnesium. Sure I took it too far by 5 hours when sour fermentation took place but hey.

Well, I finnished about an hour ago. 32.5 hours must be some sort of record in stupidity, but it was fun. I do have good chemistry knowledge, got to learn a bit about enzymes though.

ended up with 34 litres final boil volume + 8 extra

75gm chech sazz 3.8% @ 90mins
50gm hallertau 3% @ 60mins
15gm chech sazz 3.8% @ 5mins

Wyeast 2278 chech pils yeast slurry pitched @ ~25C (about 500mL in each 17L fermenter - stuffed up here, only needed 160mL - probably going to need a blowoff tube, but there is plenty of headroom)
Airated for 15 mins with just an air tube.
OG 1.051
OpH 4.7

Planning on primary for 1 week @ 10C, secondary for 1 week @ 10C, lager 2 to 4 weeks over christmas @ ~2C.
Bottle and store for 3 to 12 months.

 

[peas_and_corn]

 

[manticle]

My chemistry knowledge is not so good (I have a very basic understanding around high school level but more recently attained) but I do know that you can make good beer by soaking cracked grains in water of a certain temp for an hour. I did a step mash/decoction mash recently that turned out well (and incorporated a ferulic acid rest) but the whole process added an extra hour or so to the total brewing time. Yours seems excessive.

Chemistry analysis aside, what was your expected outcome when deciding to do this and do you think you've achieved it?

Interested in people having a go at different ideas - just curious as to your beginning hypothesis.

 

[Bandito]

Well, I wanted to make a chech pilsner using wyeast 2278. But also wanted to experiment a bit to see where it would go. So with no real recipe, just limited by the ingredients I had, I started thinking of doing a 3 step mash. I only planned for 30mins at each step, but when I was figuring out what temp to start at I chose 40C and it went from there. I wanted to do it like I cook, just on a wing and a prayer with a bit of the muppets chef thrown in for good measure.

I had fun, got in a bit of practice and learnt a bit, so I think I got what I wanted out of it.

 

[manticle]

If you enjoyed then I'm no-one to tell you you shouldn't. However knowing what you're doing and what to expect is the basis of succesful experimentation most of the time (including cooking).

Anyway maybe you'll make a delicious sour beer so if it doesn't turn out like you expected then age it in a non-plastic vessel and maybe flavour it with some oak or fruit.

Next time though I'd recommend a mash that takes place in less than 30 hours.