7hour Acid Rest, Now Ph4.8 - Just Continue With Mash? Using 100% Pale

[Synthetase]

If I recall correctly, the whole point of the acid rest was because the soft water in Pilsen wouldn't allow the mash pH to get low enough for conversion without it. It does seem pointless to repeat that schedule if you don't have the problem in the first place.

If you enjoyed then I'm no-one to tell you you shouldn't. However knowing what you're doing and what to expect is the basis of succesful experimentation most of the time (including cooking).

Anyway maybe you'll make a delicious sour beer so if it doesn't turn out like you expected then age it in a non-plastic vessel and maybe flavour it with some oak or fruit.

Next time though I'd recommend a mash that takes place in less than 30 hours.

Seconded

 

[Bandito]

Actually, the beer that I eventually want to make is a cross between becks and bitburger. Becks has a very slight sourness that I read somewhere ages ago might be due to the green bottle letting in some light. After this I suspect that mabee its a tiny bit of sourness, mabee resulting from this process on a much smaller scale. Reading up on sour beers / belgium beers yesterday, it seems that souring a small batch overnight and adding it to the main batch the next day is one method. I think mabee a 2.5 hour acid rest of 5% of the grainbill added to the main mash just might be the go to getting that tiny bit of sourness I am after.

Now I just need to get on with learning to do it properly. Once thats done I can come back to this.

 

[QldKev]

single infusion with a tbs of pH5.2 would have got what you want i think.

This is all I do.

BUT I am really interested in how this goes. By going to this extreme the outcome will display something that we don't normally get in our beers. Good or Bad, it is an experiment and without it we would never evolve.

So I say 'Good Work' and keep us posted on how it progresses.

QldKev

 

[kirem]

If you want to start down the brewing water chemistry path, then download JP's water spreadsheet from his how to brew web site.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html

One of the main benefits of how to brew is, JP has a great way of explaining some of the more tricky parts of brewing like water chemistry.

Another good source of brewing information including water and pH information is;

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

 

[Bandito]

Thanks guys, I am quite certain it will be horrible! But miracles do happen. My first AG is very nice indeed - just what I was trying to make.

Full brew record follows - forgive me if it is a bit excessive.... I will make a graph of the acidity and SG tomorrow. Checkout the huge SG at the 370 minure mark from only 40C, I didnt know that was possible.

T(time count up)=0mins Acid rest @ 40C started @ 2:10pm Saturday 05-12-2009

8.5kg BB pils malt from craftbrewer

Mash water pH = ~ 8.1pH,

Approx. 26 Litres strike water before adding grist

T=55mins 3:05pm After 55 mins of heating water temp = 39C Added grist.
T=76mins pH=5.8 (after rinsing once with wort (calibrated with buffer just before taking sample).
Tasted watery with slight taste of grain very light color.
Did not stir before taking sample. Have not stirred since starting acid rest.
T=146mins 4:36pm Temp=38C
Heated and Stirred for about 2 mins to 40C T=148mins
T=157mins 4:47pm Temp=40C pH=5.6
T=247mins Stirred. weird white gunk with a gel constincy came up from the front left side of the pot.
Tasted floury (like flour) with a slight sourness but not as sour as sample taken at 157mins.
T=252mins Temp=39C SG=1.024 @ 34C (SG temp taken with thermocouple type k probe)
T=303mins pH=5.4 (rinsed ph meter with wort 3 times (to get rid of ph7.0 buffer)
Particals had settled out of the wort.
T=349mins Opened up mash tun to see the mash had changed!
The froth on top had doubled!
Something is happening I think! I suspect some sort of fermentation. Latic acid Mabee?
Will wait till T=360mins to check pH.
T=370mins Temp=38.5C pH=5.0 after 3 rinses, SG=1.034 @ 35C
Before only a few bits of grain were on the surface and sample color was very light anber
in color and just a bit cloudy. Now it is completely cloudy ~8.5 out of 10,
2 out of 10 previously. The mash has changed!
T=380mins Stirred. This stir was easy as! The grist has lifted off the bottom and become
one with the wort. There seems to be air in the wort. No longer hard to stir.
Taste is creamy sour (not unlike sour cream), not pleasant, net beer, not malt,
but not unpleasant.
T=422mins pH=4.8 Raised temp to 51C.I think I added water to ~36L. Added ~10L @ ~70C
which raised temp about 5 or 6C.
T=428mins (Need > 52.2C (126F) to stop protease acid rest and <54.4C (130F) to avoid
beta amylase rest).
T=436 temp=53.3C (128F)
T=450mins SG=1.032 @37C pH=4.6
Tastes a bit sweet, cloudiness has gone, supprisingly clearish. 4 out of 10 cloudiness
mabee 3.5/10 (pH meter changed reading to 4.7).
T=456mins 9:46pm
T=617mins SG=1.034 @41C
Tastes very sweet and quite malty. looks amber, not cloudy at all!. Only about 30
grains on top, no froth.
T=636mins Started increasing temp
T=648mins Temp=56C
T=650mins Temp=57C
T=652mins Temp=58.5C
T=654.5mins Temp=60C
T=657mins Temp=61.5C
T=659.5mins Temp=63C
T=701.5mins Temp=64C
T=710mins Temp=68C
T=776mins SG=1.044
T=780mins 62C Started reheat
T=790mins 67C


T=1245mins Temp=49C SG=1.046 pH=5.0
T=1384mins Lauter started Temp=48C SG=1.057 pH4.9
T=1429mins=23h49mins=159pm
T=1516mins=3:42pm sunday Lauter finnished
Second lauterings tased mildly sweet with no detectable sourness

Bg=1.0405 @39C pH=5.0 Boil volume ~37.4L
Started heat
T=1625mins Boil started

75gm chech sazz 3.8% @ 90mins
50gm hallertau 3% @ 60mins
15gm chech sazz 3.8% @ 5mins
ended up with 34 litres final boil volume + ~8L extra lauterings (this unused portion started at SG=1.044 but never checked final SG.

Wyeast 2278 chech pils yeast slurry pitched @ ~25C (about 300 to 500mL in each 17L fermenter - stuffed up here, only needed 160mL havent needed a blow off tube yet, but there is plenty of headroom)
Airated for 15 mins with just an air tube.
OG 1.051
OpH 4.7

Planning on primary for 1 week @ 10C, secondary for 1 week @ 10C, lager 2 to 4 weeks over christmas @ ~2C. (might ferment this for longer as much of the starch seemed to be converted during the protease acid rest.
Bottle and store for 3 to 12 months (half a million minutes!)

 

[manticle]

Is 26 litres your pre-boil volume, post boil volume or strike water?

 

[paulwolf350]

Thanks guys, I am quite certain it will be horrible! But miracles do happen. My first AG is very nice indeed - just what I was trying to make.

Full brew record follows - forgive me if it is a bit excessive.... I will make a graph of the acidity and SG tomorrow. Checkout the huge SG at the 370 minure mark from only 40C, I didnt know that was possible.

T(time count up)=0mins Acid rest @ 40C started @ 2:10pm Saturday 05-12-2009

8.5kg BB pils malt from craftbrewer

Mash water pH = ~ 8.1pH,

Approx. 26 Litres strike water before adding grist

T=55mins 3:05pm After 55 mins of heating water temp = 39C Added grist.
T=76mins pH=5.8 (after rinsing once with wort (calibrated with buffer just before taking sample).
Tasted watery with slight taste of grain very light color.
Did not stir before taking sample. Have not stirred since starting acid rest.
T=146mins 4:36pm Temp=38C
Heated and Stirred for about 2 mins to 40C T=148mins
T=157mins 4:47pm Temp=40C pH=5.6
T=247mins Stirred. weird white gunk with a gel constincy came up from the front left side of the pot.
Tasted floury (like flour) with a slight sourness but not as sour as sample taken at 157mins.
T=252mins Temp=39C SG=1.024 @ 34C (SG temp taken with thermocouple type k probe)
T=303mins pH=5.4 (rinsed ph meter with wort 3 times (to get rid of ph7.0 buffer)
Particals had settled out of the wort.
T=349mins Opened up mash tun to see the mash had changed!
The froth on top had doubled!
Something is happening I think! I suspect some sort of fermentation. Latic acid Mabee?
Will wait till T=360mins to check pH.
T=370mins Temp=38.5C pH=5.0 after 3 rinses, SG=1.034 @ 35C
Before only a few bits of grain were on the surface and sample color was very light anber
in color and just a bit cloudy. Now it is completely cloudy ~8.5 out of 10,
2 out of 10 previously. The mash has changed!
T=380mins Stirred. This stir was easy as! The grist has lifted off the bottom and become
one with the wort. There seems to be air in the wort. No longer hard to stir.
Taste is creamy sour (not unlike sour cream), not pleasant, net beer, not malt,
but not unpleasant.
T=422mins pH=4.8 Raised temp to 51C.I think I added water to ~36L. Added ~10L @ ~70C
which raised temp about 5 or 6C.
T=428mins (Need > 52.2C (126F) to stop protease acid rest and <54.4C (130F) to avoid
beta amylase rest).
T=436 temp=53.3C (128F)
T=450mins SG=1.032 @37C pH=4.6
Tastes a bit sweet, cloudiness has gone, supprisingly clearish. 4 out of 10 cloudiness
mabee 3.5/10 (pH meter changed reading to 4.7).
T=456mins 9:46pm
T=617mins SG=1.034 @41C
Tastes very sweet and quite malty. looks amber, not cloudy at all!. Only about 30
grains on top, no froth.
T=636mins Started increasing temp
T=648mins Temp=56C
T=650mins Temp=57C
T=652mins Temp=58.5C
T=654.5mins Temp=60C
T=657mins Temp=61.5C
T=659.5mins Temp=63C
T=701.5mins Temp=64C
T=710mins Temp=68C
T=776mins SG=1.044
T=780mins 62C Started reheat
T=790mins 67C


T=1245mins Temp=49C SG=1.046 pH=5.0
T=1384mins Lauter started Temp=48C SG=1.057 pH4.9
T=1429mins=23h49mins=159pm
T=1516mins=3:42pm sunday Lauter finnished

Bg=10.405 @39C pH=5.0 Boil volume ~37.4L
Started heat
T=1625mins Boil started

75gm chech sazz 3.8% @ 90mins
50gm hallertau 3% @ 60mins
15gm chech sazz 3.8% @ 5mins
ended up with 34 litres final boil volume + 8L extra lauterings

Wyeast 2278 chech pils yeast slurry pitched @ ~25C (about 300 to 500mL in each 17L fermenter - stuffed up here, only needed 160mL havent needed a blow off tube yet, but there is plenty of headroom)
Airated for 15 mins with just an air tube.
OG 1.051
OpH 4.7

Planning on primary for 1 week @ 10C, secondary for 1 week @ 10C, lager 2 to 4 weeks over christmas @ ~2C.
Bottle and store for 3 to 12 months (half a million minutes!)

WOW

 

[Bandito]

A graph of ph versus time at between 38c and 40C, aswell as corrected SG versus time. Mabee thats why no gas is being produced, all of the starch was converted during the acid rest. Wouldnt supprise me but will give it another day or two to come to life.
Wierd hoe the SG drops then raises again.

Title should say Phytase acid rest and still figuring out how to make the time axis scaled.

 

[Stubbie]

Bandito,

If you're after a hint of sourness, you may want to consider using some acidulated malt.

Stubbie

 

[Bandito]

Thanks, I'll look into it and give it a go.

Well, apart from a krausen, there is no sign of fermentation. I suspect the low ph could be causing it. Anyone know what pH yeast works down to? I saw it somewhere ages ago but cant find it again.

I have just set the brew fridge thermostat to 18C for a dicetyl rest for the previous batch also using wyeast 2278. I'm hoping that might kick start it. Otherwise I'll pitch some S-23 on the weekend - not all of the starch was converted by the acid rest, at least 10 points were left......unless those 10 points were all cenverted by the beta amylase rest at 50C???.. The lauterings did taste sweet. Spose I'll find out soon enough.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

your final pH isn't all that low anyway - post boil wort with a pH of 5.1-5.2 are pretty stock standard. You are a bit lower but not drastically or anything. The yeast will have dropped it way below that pretty quickly anyway.

 

[Ross]

Thanks, I'll look into it and give it a go.

Well, apart from a krausen, there is no sign of fermentation. I suspect the low ph could be causing it. Anyone know what pH yeast works down to? I saw it somewhere ages ago but cant find it again.

I have just set the brew fridge thermostat to 18C for a dicetyl rest for the previous batch also using wyeast 2278. I'm hoping that might kick start it. Otherwise I'll pitch some S-23 on the weekend - not all of the starch was converted by the acid rest, at least 10 points were left......unless those 10 points were all cenverted by the beta amylase rest at 50C???.. The lauterings did taste sweet. Spose I'll find out soon enough.

What other signs are you looking for? relax, it's fermenting.

Seriously, make a few beers & learn the basics first, brewing does not need to be complicated.

cheers Ross

 

[jonocarroll]

not all of the starch was converted by the acid rest, at least 10 points were left......unless those 10 points were all cenverted by the beta amylase rest at 50C???.. The lauterings did taste sweet.

The above would suggest that you're stabbing blindly in the dark here.

Why do you expect the starches to be converted by the acid rest? It's an acid rest, not a saccharification rest. Beta amylase works best in the range 55*C - 65*C, so I'm not sure I would call 50*C a beta-amylase rest, much less 40*C, but I guess given the time you mashed for it may have done some work.

As for the lauterings tasting sweet - chew on an unmashed grain and tell me if it tastes sweet... your saliva contains amylase enzymes so the starches will be converted there anyway. Don't use your mouth to test conversion, only the iodine test. Your SG vs time is very odd - I'm not sure how you've measured mash SG, or why you have done so, but the only number you need to take care of is the SG when all sugars are extracted.

You've got a krausen, so you are fermenting something, but you're going to kick 2278 up to 18*C and ruin it? 2278 ferments warm, but that's pushing it.

I think you need to perhaps re-read the procedural steps of How to Brew, then probably go along to a brew day and see how everyone else does this. Oh, and while stuffing up a procedure is entirely forgivable, pretending you did it on purpose and calling it an experiment; not so much.

 

[JonnyAnchovy]

Oh, and while stuffing up a procedure is entirely forgivable, pretending you did it on purpose and calling it an experiment; not so much.

So people have to seek your forgiveness now QB? I must have missed that memo. :blink:

Bandito - consider yourself unforgiven! ::finger shaking::

 

[blackbock]

Bandito, please ignore all of the know-all comments, you haven't done anything weird.
( reinvented the wheel perhaps, but...experimentation is fun )

I am sure your version of Pilsener Urquell will be nothing short of outstanding.

 

[manticle]

Bandito, please ignore all of the know-all comments,

Except bandito asked for advice/feedback. Would you prefer none was given?

 

[blackbock]

Except bandito asked for advice/feedback. Would you prefer none was given?

Well, I don't wish to speak for bandito, but since he/she made it clear what process he/she had undertaken and asked the following question in the OP:

The question now is do I just continue the mash at 60 deg C then 70 deg C as normal or do I increase the longth of time because of the low pH (4.8 instead of 5.2)?

I can't see how posting smart-a*s pics and advice to just dump cracked grains in hot water for an hour is really very good advice in his/her situation, at least I would be disappointed if I ever received such worthless feedback.

 

[manticle]

If you look past any smart arse pics, the general advice was to keep it simple and not overcomplicate things as the OP had initially suggested they were quite new to this. I think that's fairly sound advice and unlikely to have been offered with any malice.

I think the question was due to some confusion in interpreting basic tenets of AG brewing so the answer isn't as simple as yes or no.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Bandito, please ignore all of the know-all comments, you haven't done anything weird.
( reinvented the wheel perhaps, but...experimentation is fun )

I am sure your version of Pilsener Urquell will be nothing short of outstanding.

Actually - Bandito has done something weird. Really quite weird.

Thats not sayig that weird brewing is a bad thing mind you, or that the beer wont turn out great... but to be honest, if it does turn out great it will be despite the odd mashing routine not because of it.

If Bandito mashed that way because he wanted to see what happens - cool, more power to a brewer with loads of patience and a willingness to try new stuff. But if he/she mashed that way because he thought it was necessary or in fact desirable in order to brew the beer he was targeting... then basically he's way off the mark.

 

[Bandito]

I did it to see what happens.

13 years ago when me and a mate started brewing, we had an unused fridge in the corner of the brewery. We kept saying 'mabee we should try brewing at low temperature' instead of 32C, but we were too scared of ruining a batch so we never tried it. If only we had the balls to try it - if only.

I suppose I saw this acid rest in a chart with a big 'not used anymore' next to it, and I thought 'we'll see about that'. And I will see.

Its not as if this is my first AG brew, its my third. My first was mashed at 70ishC and tastes great. My second was mashed at 60C and 70C I think (have to find the bre log). Half of It (secondary) went into the food fridge last night for conditioning and will get a taste tonight when I gelatine. So although I am sure my first AG could have been better I was very happy with it.