Stepped Mashing Schedules By Style

[manticle]

Reading and trial and error.

I find 10-15 minutes at a low mash temp more than adequate to get the attenuation I would expect from a single infusion at 65/66, then the remainder is for dextrinous/body/mouthfeel. A full bodied beer that's had a 40 minute mash at 68 preceded by 10 mins at 62 can still attenuate well and finish dry in my experience. Yeast choice influences things too.

 

[Cocko]

Ok,

Looking for some help from the knowledgeable step mashers here...

I have programmed may PID as attached.

Any advice is appreciated.

 

[Malted]

Looking for some help from the knowledgeable step mashers here...

if t = time of zero.
No 78oC mashout huh?

 

[Cocko]

if t = time of zero.
No 78oC mashout huh?

It does mean time but by having it programmed to 0, stops the program running and holds it at 78* for however long....

 

[TSMill]

I set an additional t=0 step at protein rest temps at the start. Turn on first thing in the morning and it gets up to starting temp over breakfast & sits there good to go.

 

[juzz1981]

I have just started step mashes as i've gone from single infusion to a 20Lt Braumeister, One question I have is why for example would you do two individual rests at 63c for 30min (beta) and 72 for 30min when you could just program a single rest at halfway say 66c? Wouldn't this get the same type of enzyme activity?

No doubt im wrong here but would like to know why..

 

[Malted]

I have just started step mashes as i've gone from single infusion to a 20Lt Braumeister, One question I have is why for example would you do two individual rests at 63c for 30min (beta) and 72 for 30min when you could just program a single rest at halfway say 66c? Wouldn't this get the same type of enzyme activity?

No doubt im wrong here but would like to know why..

Short answer:
it is just refining the process.

Slightly longer answer:
I wouldn't say that you are wrong, you can make good beer with a 66oC rest.
To use an analogy: You can make good curry with pre-made curry powder, or you can make your own curry powder with the same ingredients but tweak the relative proportions of the mix to suit your pallet.
Whilst different enzymes are active across a broad spectrum of temperatures, there are ranges of temps that are optimal for them. Some of these are listed in the first table on the first page of this thread.

Generally speaking, those enzymes that have optimal temps in the higher temps, can do it quicker than those with lower optimal temps. Thus some folks might go 45 at 63oC and 15 at 72oC because you wouldn't want too many dextrins/alpha-amalyase activity.
This is the beauty of a Braumeister: mash in temp plus up to 5 mash steps to play around with.

 

[Flying Panda]

Short answer:
it is just refining the process.

Slightly longer answer:
I wouldn't say that you are wrong, you can make good beer with a 66oC rest.
To use an analogy: You can make good curry with pre-made curry powder, or you can make your own curry powder with the same ingredients but tweak the relative proportions of the mix to suit your pallet.
Whilst different enzymes are active across a broad spectrum of temperatures, there are ranges of temps that are optimal for them. Some of these are listed in the first table on the first page of this thread.

Generally speaking, those enzymes that have optimal temps in the higher temps, can do it quicker than those with lower optimal temps. Thus some folks might go 45 at 63oC and 15 at 72oC because you wouldn't want too many dextrins/alpha-amalyase activity.
This is the beauty of a Braumeister: mash in temp plus up to 5 mash steps to play around with.

What happen if there too many dextrine/alpha-amalyase activity in the wort?

 

[mje1980]

Dunno, but I brewed a porter yesterday with 20 mins at 63, then 50 mins at 73, so I'll find out in a few weeks. If you do a low temp rest first it shouldn't be a problem. I read on the braukiser site that "some brewers report good results with an extended rest at this temperature". Not an exact quote, and I think it relates mostly to head retention. Im sure someone here would have done a beer with a long rest in the low 70's.

 

[Cervantes]

Referring back to this section of the original post..........

"Mash out
Raising of temperatures at the end of the mash to stop enzymes working and makes the grain bed and wort more fluid and can prevent a stuck sparge (but if aBraumeister/recirculating system is not stuck before then, it probably won't stick). Any starches rinsed out during the following sparge will not be converted to useful sugars as the enzymes have stopped working, these starches may cause haze in the finished beer. It doesn't seem likely that a good mash would contain residual starches. A mash out would seem to be important for a mash that contain wheat, oats, rye and undermodified malts."

And in particular to the bit in bold.

Does anyone have any experience of this? It would seem to make sense.

I use a BM and have been mashing out at 78 and then sparging at 78. The sparge in theory is just a rinse as all enzymes should have been denatured.

Would I be better of finishing my mash and sparging at say 72 where I still have a chance to convert any starches?

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

Starch conversion test on a proper 76 mash out would be a good way to find out. I've never done this because anecdotally I think I am always converted. I tend to do a 90 min mash most of the time - I'm rarely in a rash.

When I made a 100% corn chicha, the sparge definitely and visibly loosened starch, so it's definitely a risk if you are unconverted.

 

[manticle]

Are you getting starch haze or any other indication that conversion is incomplete?

 

[Cervantes]

Are you getting starch haze or any other indication that conversion is incomplete?

No I'm not having problems. Although I have experienced some chill haze.

This was more of a theoretical/hypothetical question. I still have a lot to learn about mash temperatures and their effects, so was just interested.

 

[Bribie G]

I guess it could be a problem with some adjunct mashes where the unmalted grist has not been properly gelatinised to make the starch fully available to the enzymes. I'm thinking back to some experiments of mine in the past adding uncooked Polenta to the mash to see if it would gelatinise at mash temperature, the use of some brewing flours in UK style ales and addition of rolled oats that may still have had starches lurking.

 

[manticle]

No I'm not having problems. Although I have experienced some chill haze.

This was more of a theoretical/hypothetical question. I still have a lot to learn about mash temperatures and their effects, so was just interested.

Cool. I would think that if you reach the end of a mash and have significant starch left over, that it's indicative of other issues (possibly malt quality) and skipping mash out for a cool sparge would be a band-aid solution at best.

The reason I mash out is because I don't want any residual beta amylase to break down the dextrins from my alpha rest.
If I was doing single infusion, I probably wouldn't bother - just sparge a tad hotter and get the boil going quickly.

 

[Cervantes]

"Mash out
Raising of temperatures at the end of the mash to stop enzymes working and makes the grain bed and wort more fluid and can prevent a stuck sparge (but if aBraumeister/recirculating system is not stuck before then, it probably won't stick). Any starches rinsed out during the following sparge will not be converted to useful sugars as the enzymes have stopped working, these starches may cause haze in the finished beer. It doesn't seem likely that a good mash would contain residual starches. A mash out would seem to be important for a mash that contain wheat, oats, rye and undermodified malts."

Thanks Gents,

Re-reading this it seems that I had missed the sentence underlined above, which would have answered my question.

So I can continue to mash out at 78 without being concerned that I'll induce any hazes.

 

[fraser_john]

Revisiting my PID program for the dry ale. I've just sampled a Golden Ale style beer with 8% crystal malts in it and it came out with an FG of 1008! Think with the new configuration of my setup, some adjustments on the first step are needed LOL, so gone from 63 to 64. Be trying it on an IPA this w/e.

 

[Cervantes]

I'm just bumping this thread as I stumbled across it again today and found it a very good read, so have bumped it for anyone else interested.

 

[Camo6]

I reckon I read this thread a few times when setting up my pids. In fact I pretty much copied Cocko's auber PID schedule to the letter. Pretty sure that's in this thread somewhere.

 

[kaiserben]

With that mash step table, what's the difference between Weyerman Wheat and Weizen mash schedules?

I'm interested in making a Roggenweizen (eg Stortebeker Roggenweizen) but first I'm attempting a Roggenbier (51% rye), which AFAIK has similarities to a dunkelweizen (but with rye subbed in for the wheat).

(will be brewing on a Grainfather)

I pretty much want to end up with plenty of banana esters, so I assume I want to avoid the phenol enhancing steps and follow the weizen mash schedule rather than Weyerman Wheat schedule?